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1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box

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1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« on: June 10, 2014, 09:41:09 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Tom, have you ever seen this one before? The only decks I have ever seen from them with no date codes, and I am told that means pre WWII. The box has an emblem embedded into the case, matching the deer and snow capped mountain theme.

(corrected to be 'up-right' instead of sideways...)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:17:09 PM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2014, 01:35:52 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Tom, have you ever seen this one before? The only decks I have ever seen from them with no date codes, and I am told that means pre WWII. The box has an emblem embedded into the case, matching the deer and snow capped mountain theme.

I have no idea as to when their dating system was used.  Perhaps it's from the first model year, same as the copyright?  The box appears to be right for it.  In any case, it's no older than 1935.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2014, 07:10:48 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Kem was started by an Austrian inventor with the backing of Ely Culbertson in early 1930's. It produced decks in USA until bought by USPC in 1940'sr 50's. I have seen them dated and also undated on the Ace. The dacks I have seen before and the Bakelite boxes were the norm for Kem in the 30's.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2014, 07:26:50 AM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Kem was started by an Austrian inventor with the backing of Ely Culbertson in early 1930's. It produced decks in USA until bought by USPC in 1940'sr 50's. I have seen them dated and also undated on the Ace. The dacks I have seen before and the Bakelite boxes were the norm for Kem in the 30's.
I agree, but I suppose that we'll just have to speculate for now.  The story I was given was quite intricate and indicated that until 1941 there was no date codes, so the (C)1935 on the AoS is indeed all we have to go by, but the fact that they never attempted to duplicate this save for the one instance Tom recounted with the 'firebox' as I recall leads me to believe this could possibly be one of the very first - not to mention that it's the single bakelite case I have ever seen that is not interchangeable with every single other one (except "firebox", of course).  The design is markedly different, slightly shorter than every other bakelite case I have seen and fits together differently.  You can't swap the top or bottom of this box with any other unit, as you can with every deck box I have ever handled.  The small guides to insure proper fit are on the top piece as opposed to on the bottom one.

The silver circle device looks to me to be some type of prototype, perhaps?  The fact that it is imbedded into the plastic during creation and has a very unique "deer and snow-capped mountain" emblem leads me to believe it could possibly be amongst the first ones made.  I have never seen another unit that has anything like it, nor have I seen another unit of this specific design.  The look and feel certainly appears to be 30's to me, although Tom is a better judge of dates.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:29:48 AM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 12:06:01 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Kem was started by an Austrian inventor with the backing of Ely Culbertson in early 1930's. It produced decks in USA until bought by USPC in 1940'sr 50's. I have seen them dated and also undated on the Ace. The dacks I have seen before and the Bakelite boxes were the norm for Kem in the 30's.

According to this page:
http://www.bicyclecards.com/about/bicycle-cards

USPC didn't acquire KEM until 2004.  Before then, they were manufactured in New York State - I think in the town of Poughkeepsie.

Kem was started by an Austrian inventor with the backing of Ely Culbertson in early 1930's. It produced decks in USA until bought by USPC in 1940'sr 50's. I have seen them dated and also undated on the Ace. The dacks I have seen before and the Bakelite boxes were the norm for Kem in the 30's.
I agree, but I suppose that we'll just have to speculate for now.  The story I was given was quite intricate and indicated that until 1941 there was no date codes, so the (C)1935 on the AoS is indeed all we have to go by, but the fact that they never attempted to duplicate this save for the one instance Tom recounted with the 'firebox' as I recall leads me to believe this could possibly be one of the very first - not to mention that it's the single bakelite case I have ever seen that is not interchangeable with every single other one (except "firebox", of course).  The design is markedly different, slightly shorter than every other bakelite case I have seen and fits together differently.  You can't swap the top or bottom of this box with any other unit, as you can with every deck box I have ever handled.  The small guides to insure proper fit are on the top piece as opposed to on the bottom one.

The silver circle device looks to me to be some type of prototype, perhaps?  The fact that it is imbedded into the plastic during creation and has a very unique "deer and snow-capped mountain" emblem leads me to believe it could possibly be amongst the first ones made.  I have never seen another unit that has anything like it, nor have I seen another unit of this specific design.  The look and feel certainly appears to be 30's to me, although Tom is a better judge of dates.

I don't think it's a prototype - I think it was an early method for identifying the cards in the box without the need to open it.  Speculation, of course, but it does make more sense.  The company might not have even been wrapping the decks individually in cellophane yet, hence the need to keep the product from being opened prior to sale.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 12:47:44 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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According to this page:
http://www.bicyclecards.com/about/bicycle-cards

USPC didn't acquire KEM until 2004.  Before then, they were manufactured in New York State - I think in the town of Poughkeepsie.

I don't think it's a prototype - I think it was an early method for identifying the cards in the box without the need to open it.  Speculation, of course, but it does make more sense.  The company might not have even been wrapping the decks individually in cellophane yet, hence the need to keep the product from being opened prior to sale.

I accept Don's 2004 date as I was at cottage and guessing. Also first Kem decks produced in 1935 - not earlier. At home now and can see the picture clearly on my computer. It is the same as the Ace in Hochman and it clearly refers to the copyright date  ©1935
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 12:48:29 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2014, 02:20:04 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Quote
According to this page:
http://www.bicyclecards.com/about/bicycle-cards

USPC didn't acquire KEM until 2004.  Before then, they were manufactured in New York State - I think in the town of Poughkeepsie.

I don't think it's a prototype - I think it was an early method for identifying the cards in the box without the need to open it.  Speculation, of course, but it does make more sense.  The company might not have even been wrapping the decks individually in cellophane yet, hence the need to keep the product from being opened prior to sale.

I accept Don's 2004 date as I was at cottage and guessing. Also first Kem decks produced in 1935 - not earlier. At home now and can see the picture clearly on my computer. It is the same as the Ace in Hochman and it clearly refers to the copyright date  ©1935
Indeed, there are no "replacement cards" like those made in 1947 or later, and no sort of date code on any card(s) in the deck, and the mid-40's decks had a slightly different sequencing code without the leading '4' - as in 301 meaning January 1943.  That I already knew.  I just am making the supposition that this deck is a very early deck, likely 30's and as we have all pointed out before, none were made pre-1935.  Has anyone ever seen another deck you could ID simply by looking without opening the bakelite case? (other than the afore-mentioned "firebox" one)
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2014, 05:47:07 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Indeed, there are no "replacement cards" like those made in 1947 or later, and no sort of date code on any card(s) in the deck, and the mid-40's decks had a slightly different sequencing code without the leading '4' - as in 301 meaning January 1943.  That I already knew.  I just am making the supposition that this deck is a very early deck, likely 30's and as we have all pointed out before, none were made pre-1935.  Has anyone ever seen another deck you could ID simply by looking without opening the bakelite case? (other than the afore-mentioned "firebox" one)

I'm no expert, but did they swap the month and year back then?  Because normally it's the last two digits representing the year and the remaining one or two digits on the left for the month.  In the standard dating scheme, "301" would be March, 2001, while January, 1943 would be 143.  Leaving out the "4" digit for 1940s would leave you with 13, or perhaps 103 if they used a zero as a place holder, but then that would also mean January, 2003.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2014, 06:10:09 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Nope. They used 2 or 3 digits without what we are used to as the third digit after 1949.

23 is February 1943, 116 is November 1946 and so forth. In 1950 they Bagan using the 3 and 4 digits (only in October, November & December) which we are used to seeing. I am told that the codes were absent until near the end of 1941, the lowest I have seen is 91 for September 1941.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2014, 06:24:58 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Nope. They used 2 or 3 digits without what we are used to as the third digit after 1949.

23 is February 1943, 116 is November 1946 and so forth. In 1950 they Bagan using the 3 and 4 digits (only in October, November & December) which we are used to seeing. I am told that the codes were absent until near the end of 1941, the lowest I have seen is 91 for September 1941.

But this means that the example you gave for "301" would not have existed, never mind meaning January, 1943, which would actually be represented with "13".
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2014, 07:08:49 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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Yep
Nope. They used 2 or 3 digits without what we are used to as the third digit after 1949.

23 is February 1943, 116 is November 1946 and so forth. In 1950 they Bagan using the 3 and 4 digits (only in October, November & December) which we are used to seeing. I am told that the codes were absent until near the end of 1941, the lowest I have seen is 91 for September 1941.

But this means that the example you gave for "301" would not have existed, never mind meaning January, 1943, which would actually be represented with "13".
Yep, true.  I was recalling something that I later confirmed to be incorrect, it is a different pair and does have 13 on it instead.  The deck that I thought was the one I was thinking about at the time in fact has has 103, which should be October, 1943 according to everything that I was told.  I have numerous examples of decks with 2-digit and 3-digit codes that have Bakelite cases, and a very few with genuine Bakelite (the later cases appear to be the same, but have a small "KEM" with a crown branded over the top instead of the stretched out K - E - M across the entire surface from top-to-bottom) which have 3-digit codes indicating manufacture between March 1950 (350) and April 1954 (454) as well as two with 4 digits - 1052 (October 1952) and 1251 (December 1951).  All of those that I have found with date codes beyond 1955 (155, etc - and later) are not Bakelite, or are the later side-by-side (flat) cases as opposed to the earlier two examples, bakelite pre-1954 and normal plastic (non-phenolic, in other words no 'odd' smell) from early 1955 on.  I don't have enough empirical evidence to surmise when the precise change occurred, although this does narrow it down to some time in '54 or '55.  That makes sense because as I previously noted Union Carbide (and Carbon at that time) bought Bakelite Company and incorporated it into their brand in 1948 and I suspect that Kem likely had enough of the cases already on-hand to last a few years, apparently quite a few - about 5 or 6 years' worth at most.  It would be interesting to do a survey of Kem decks to narrow that down, as I would have to assume that there was a short period that certain decks were placed in both type (Bakelite or not) containers that on the initial inspection appear to be very similar (except weight, which is drastically different - phenolic plastics are made using formaldehyde which incurs that funky odor as well as they higher weight from the process) and the close inspection of the lid shows the older Bakelite lids have that broad top-to-bottom K-E-M as opposed to the non-Bakelite tops with KEM in 1" high (approx) letters surmounted with a crown.

I suppose that there is a period later where certain decks were in the latter boxes or the flat cases as well, but again I don't have many (2, possibly?) of those and both are 1960's as I recall.  I have one deck with no codes whatsoever - the one in the OP.

One other thing that I have recently noticed that I hadn't though about until then was that the date code appears below the left lobe on the AoS in odd months and below the right lobe in even months on the AoS in post-1950 decks, I suppose to eliminate any possibility of misinterpreting that code?  Not certain, again, I only have maybe a dozen examples, and only 4 or post-1950 dates.  Most are the 2-digit and 3-digit 40's codes and this lone example contains no codes at all.

One more thing I just noticed by comparing it to another Bakelite case, this one is not only about 1/8" less tall, it is also about 1/8" less deep (back to front) but the side-to-side dimension is almost identical.  Again, I have never seen another case where the top "dovetailed" into the bottom as opposed to the opposite.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 07:26:09 PM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 09:08:36 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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According to this page:
http://www.bicyclecards.com/about/bicycle-cards

USPC didn't acquire KEM until 2004.  Before then, they were manufactured in New York State - I think in the town of Poughkeepsie.

I don't think it's a prototype - I think it was an early method for identifying the cards in the box without the need to open it.  Speculation, of course, but it does make more sense.  The company might not have even been wrapping the decks individually in cellophane yet, hence the need to keep the product from being opened prior to sale.


I accept Don's 2004 date as I was at cottage and guessing. Also first Kem decks produced in 1935 - not earlier. At home now and can see the picture clearly on my computer. It is the same as the Ace in Hochman and it clearly refers to the copyright date  ©1935
Indeed, there are no "replacement cards" like those made in 1947 or later, and no sort of date code on any card(s) in the deck, and the mid-40's decks had a slightly different sequencing code without the leading '4' - as in 301 meaning January 1943.  That I already knew.  I just am making the supposition that this deck is a very early deck, likely 30's and as we have all pointed out before, none were made pre-1935.  Has anyone ever seen another deck you could ID simply by looking without opening the bakelite case? (other than the afore-mentioned "firebox" one)
Some confusion about the firebox - it was not a Kem deck - regular materials advertising a fire alarm company and shaped like a firebox on a pole or in a building.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 09:09:23 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 09:11:14 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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I am quite sure the decks you pictured are from the mod-1930's
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 10:39:06 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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I am quite sure the decks you pictured are from the mid-1930's
So was I, but not 100% - the box is just unlike any I've ever seen.  That imbedded circle device in the center with pattern to match the cards is the 'tell' that it likely was one of their first, as well as the lack of date code.  I have seen (but not owned) decks with 72 code (July, 1942), so I knew that they likely couldn't be later than about 1940.

I have a good eye for such things, just like that near perfect for its age and original quality 125+ year-old "Chas Goodall and Son" Tom Thumb deck from about 1865-70.  It didn't "look right" and wasn't really pictured well but I could tell from just the fuzzy pictures that it was something unusual.  The other thing was it was listed as "square" and having plain backs, but they are actually a pale pink.  These two Kem decks were $7.99 and I always look at new listings every day for mislisted items and things where people either don't know what they have or don't care and only want to get a buck out of them.

As I've noted before, those Bakelite boxes are worth $15-$20 without decks in them.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2014, 10:43:40 PM by Mike Ratledge »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 04:05:53 PM »
 

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The name on the cards also helps in dating.  These are labeled "KEM Playing Cards, Inc." which was the name of the company when it first started.  Company was taken over by KEM Card Sales Corp. around 1937 and then KEM Plastic Playing Cards, Inc. in 1939.

Also, I'd bet that this is a Neillite case and has "KEM Playing Cards, Inc." on the bottom.  I have a similarly labeled deck with with a slightly different Neillite box.  All the Neillte cases I have seen dovetail into the base.  I also have a KEM Card Sales Corp. case with the dovetailing on the lid but it is not marked as Neillite.

Do you have any issues wit the red ink on your cards?  I have two decks of the KEM Playing Cards, Inc. Fawn cards, and for both it looks like the red ink soaked through the card.  In the 1940 Facts about KEM Cards booklet they mention improved ink.  I wonder if this red ink was an issue on a lot of the original decks from 1935-1937?
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 07:43:41 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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That's an interesting point. I have seen cards from the 1930s by Kem with that bleeding.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 08:13:25 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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The name on the cards also helps in dating.  These are labeled "KEM Playing Cards, Inc." which was the name of the company when it first started.  Company was taken over by KEM Card Sales Corp. around 1937 and then KEM Plastic Playing Cards, Inc. in 1939.

Also, I'd bet that this is a Neillite case and has "KEM Playing Cards, Inc." on the bottom.  I have a similarly labeled deck with with a slightly different Neillite box.  All the Neillte cases I have seen dovetail into the base.  I also have a KEM Card Sales Corp. case with the dovetailing on the lid but it is not marked as Neillite.

Do you have any issues wit the red ink on your cards?  I have two decks of the KEM Playing Cards, Inc. Fawn cards, and for both it looks like the red ink soaked through the card.  In the 1940 Facts about KEM Cards booklet they mention improved ink.  I wonder if this red ink was an issue on a lot of the original decks from 1935-1937?

Good info.  I think I know what that "bleeding" is all about.  It's not that the ink soaked through the card so much as it is that any card in contact with the face of a red card would have ink transfer issues.  I've seen that before in plastic decks of a certain age - I have one from a different manufacturer that has that issue.

There was also an odd "reverse transfer" where the card backs stacked on top of black cards had some of the ink on the card back worn off in the shape of the black card's ink from the card below.  I'm guessing that the black ink was layered on the plastic rather than printed into the plastic, and that with long term storage, transfer, shifting of cards, etc., the black ink layer of the black cards wore off some of the ink from the card backs.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 08:22:23 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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You're the first person I have ever seen call it Neillite, which of course - it is.  The only other example I have ever seen is a pair of KEM Chicago World's Fair decks that had the silver badge missing from the case and was listed for $500.  As I recall, it did not sell.  That was 1933-34, if memory serves me well.

Neillite is Bakelite, made by Neill Co in Britain.

No bleeding of the red on my decks, though.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2015, 09:10:30 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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If the company wasn't founded until 1935, why would Kem make a deck set for the '33-'34 World's Fair in Chicago?
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 09:22:19 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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If the company wasn't founded until 1935, why would Kem make a deck set for the '33-'34 World's Fair in Chicago?
The same thing crossed my mind, so I went hunting and found that date is the date used on the copyright of their Ace of Spades, but their own website states that they started producing cards in the "first half of the 1930's".  I'll see if I can find a picture of those decks, they might well be for something else or perhaps made as a production sample.  That was my gut feeling - that it looked like that logo.  Maybe not?  I think I ran into the picture recently.  Let me see if I can dig it up.
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2015, 09:39:19 PM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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It's not Century of Progress, and in fact has the ©1935 AoS: (and branded Neillite on the bottom)
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2015, 02:16:23 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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If the company wasn't founded until 1935, why would Kem make a deck set for the '33-'34 World's Fair in Chicago?
The same thing crossed my mind, so I went hunting and found that date is the date used on the copyright of their Ace of Spades, but their own website states that they started producing cards in the "first half of the 1930's".  I'll see if I can find a picture of those decks, they might well be for something else or perhaps made as a production sample.  That was my gut feeling - that it looked like that logo.  Maybe not?  I think I ran into the picture recently.  Let me see if I can dig it up.

Kem doesn't have its own website.  They're part of USPC.  The purchase was in 2004, the same year they bought the Gambler's General Store - later sold off and now known as Gambler's Warehouse out of Austin, TX.  There was a dry period of a few years where USPC produced nothing under the Kem brand.  Kem aficionados were concerned, thinking that USPC might have buried the brand as they've done with others in the past.  When Kem cards returned (I don't know the precise date), they had a much smaller deck selection to choose from and people have complained that the quality of the cards took a hit as well, with operations being moved out of Poughkeepsie, NY and into the Cincinnati plant, then into Erlanger.  (There's even a chance they never made them in Cincinnati, opting instead to wait for the newer equipment in Kentucky, as I'm not sure when they revived the brand.)  As a result, Kem lost out on a lot of the poker craze and people started becoming familiar with all the new manufacturers out there like Modiano and Copag.  But I'm digressing.

Kem.com does indeed exist, but it takes you to a sales page owned by Kardwell, a large playing card and gambling accessories distributor on eastern Long Island that carries a pretty healthy-sized collection of decks for wholesale and retail, most of which are from USPC.  They aren't the manufacturer and any historical information they offer may be inaccurate.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 02:20:11 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2015, 11:13:21 AM »
 

Mike Ratledge

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I thought the same thing, Don. The quote is from Kemcards.net run by Bryburry. It seems like USPCC would stomp all over them if it's not legitimate, and they accurately reflect that 2 year period between 2004 & 2006 when USPCC let the brand just sit stale, until they got the deal with WSOP.

My guess was simply based on the copyright date of 1935. It doesn't seem reasonable that the copyright date is the first year that they did business, but further attempts to narrow down the first deck they produced don't turn up anything, which in itself is odd.

I just found that site on Wednesday trying to dig up more information, so I agree it's entirely suspect.

Curious, frankly...
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2015, 02:25:27 PM »
 

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Those of you who study their Hochman Encyclopedia each night, or are World's Fair buffs would know that the back design is for the 1939 World's Fair in New York. As pointed out Kem started making cards in 1935 and likely made these in 1938 in preparation for the Fair - they are not Exposition decks in the context of that chapter in Hochman - rather regular decks with a themed back [ perhaps Kem had a booth at the 1939 Fair?].
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Re: 1930-ish Kem decks with unique bakelite box
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2015, 09:58:47 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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The quote is from Kemcards.net run by Bryburry.

Just another retailer site.  USPC wouldn't bother with them for something so minor, especially when they're buying their products.

Those of you who study their Hochman Encyclopedia each night, or are World's Fair buffs would know that the back design is for the 1939 World's Fair in New York. As pointed out Kem started making cards in 1935 and likely made these in 1938 in preparation for the Fair - they are not Exposition decks in the context of that chapter in Hochman - rather regular decks with a themed back [ perhaps Kem had a booth at the 1939 Fair?].

I keep forgetting that NYC had a '39 World's Fair because of the one in the '60s - there's still some visible artifacts near where I live.  But yes, that makes a LOT more sense.
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