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Wild Bill Hickok Deck?

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Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« on: February 17, 2014, 11:47:21 AM »
 

Aoresteen

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Hello!  First post here!

I'm trying to find out what deck of cards that was used when Wild Bill Hickok was killed.  The only refference I can find is that it was a deck of "Bulldog Squeezers".

Wild Bill was killed Aug 2, 1876.  Fromw what I can find the Bulldog Squeezers were introduced in 1877, AFTER Wild Bill was killed.

Does anyone know what type deck of cards that was being used when Wild Bill was killed?
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2014, 12:33:59 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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It's possible that a different "Squeezers" deck was used - and impossible that it was Bulldog Squeezers, for the exact reason you deduced.

There were other decks with the "Squeezers" brand on them over the years - it's possible that one of those was the deck in question and not the Bulldog Squeezers.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 03:59:58 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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Thanks!

Here's the reference I was refering to:

"The Adams Museum in Deadwood has a display that claims to be the actual Bulldog Squeezers Playing Cards held by Hickok (ace of diamonds, ace of clubs, eight of hearts, eight of spades, and the queen of hearts)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man%27s_hand

I called the Adams museum but theay are closed on Mondays.  I'll try later on in the week.
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 04:21:27 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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I'd take their claim that they have the original cards with a grain of salt!! The first Squeezers came out around 1870. The issue date of the cards with the two dogs [pretty weak rendition of bulldogs] representing Squeezers and Triplicates was indeed 1877. Possibly there was a Squeezer deck out earlier with a Bulldog in the back design - I've never seen it and I think I've seen most of the early Squeezer backs. Maybe Kalush can help!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 04:24:19 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 08:12:45 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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I called the Adams Museum today and the lady said that she would look at the cards that they have and would get back to me in a week.
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2014, 08:25:19 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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look forward to getting that info.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2014, 05:06:14 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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I just heard back from the Adams Musemum in Deadwood.  They sent me photos of the back and the front of the 8 of hearts.

Back:


Front:


Clearly these are not Squeezers.  So does anyone recognize the back pattern?  Do they date to 1876?

 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 02:13:18 AM »
 

HeartQ

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I just heard back from the Adams Musemum in Deadwood.  They sent me photos of the back and the front of the 8 of hearts.

Back:


Front:


Clearly these are not Squeezers.  So does anyone recognize the back pattern?  Do they date to 1876?


« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 12:43:13 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 02:27:48 AM »
 

HeartQ

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Yes, this period deck could certainly be the right one. However the Ace of Spades would no doubt tell you what you want to know as it generally gives you the name of the manufacturer. However if it happened to be a cheating deck the Ace of Spades would probably be a generic one so try to get a scan of it. Intriquing!
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 07:22:56 AM »
 

Aoresteen

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The Adams Museum has the ace of diamonds, ace of clubs, eight of hearts, eight of spades, and the queen of hearts.   They do not have the ace of spades.  So which manufacturer had the blue with circles back design?
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 10:19:08 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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It's a familiar back. Likely a Dougherty or NYCC deck [or one of the founding NYCC firms - Samuel Hart or Lawrence & Cohen].

If you have a scan of the Queen it will help and may allow a definitive identification.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 12:42:40 PM by 52plusjoker »
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 09:45:13 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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Ok, I will try to get a scan/pic of the queen.
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2014, 06:38:23 AM »
 

Yashi

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I tried to do some digging (not that I'm an expert in vintage things) and found this.


Got the image from this site: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1008941
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2014, 08:39:48 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Likely Samuel Hart then [although some makers tended to copy others]
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2014, 11:45:10 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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Likely Samuel Hart then [although some makers tended to copy others]

I did notice on the card from the museum that the edge was cut slightly crooked - could it have been a stripper deck, I wonder?  Or at the very least, a one-way back design?
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2014, 12:24:06 AM »
 

athomas16

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I tried to do some digging (not that I'm an expert in vintage things) and found this.


Got the image from this site: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1008941

It looked like Samuel Hart to me too, but those rounded corners?
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2014, 05:42:51 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I tried to do some digging (not that I'm an expert in vintage things) and found this.


Got the image from this site: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1008941

It looked like Samuel Hart to me too, but those rounded corners?

Rounded?  More likely just worn.  They don't look terribly rounded.

For all we know, these could even be reprint cards - didn't someone release a Hart deck reprint at some time?  Since the museum was incorrect on what deck these came from, I wouldn't consider it impossible that they'd be incorrect about these being the actual cards handled by Will Bill in his last-ever poker hand.

I checked the replica decks offered bu US Games Systems - no match.  The models they offer are reprints of a Dougherty deck and an L.I. Cohen deck, with the originals having been printed during the Civil War, over a decade before WIll Bill's death.

I would say that it's possible that the cards are authentic playing cards of the era, but the likelihood of them being the precise cards held in that infamous game are pretty slim.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 05:44:23 AM by Don Boyer »
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2014, 09:08:00 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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This deck looks authentic - NY42 in Hochman. It was made as a Faro deck [pictured] with one way courts, and as a Poker deck with two courts.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2014, 09:18:26 AM »
 

Angeldancer

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Y'all are doing great work on trying to find "the" deck that Wild Bill Hickok was holding when he shot and killed in Deadwood.  I would like add my two cents to this string.  As mentioned earlier, Bill was killed in August 1876 in the Deadwood camp in Tom Nuttall's #10 Saloon.  According to the extra footage on the HBO Deadwood complete DVD series, the entire Deadwood camp burned to the ground in 1877, including the chair that he was sitting in when he was killed.  The camp did have a very heavy water pump wagon, but because it was so heavy and cumbersome to use, it was left behind and burned as well.  I speculate the original cards / deck he was holding / playing with burned up in the fire of 1877, unless they were on the person of Calamity Jane of Tom Nuttall as they left the camp and the fire.  That's a possibility.  I believe it is going to be very hard to find the actual deck Wild Bill had in his hand when he was killed.  Would be an awesome find, if we can find it, but I would classify it as ultra extremely rare, based on the fire that wiped out the entire camp.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 11:14:07 AM »
 

52plusjoker

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Good info there - it would be extremely difficult to authenticate it as well!
Tom Dawson
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 10:57:12 PM »
 

athomas16

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I tried to do some digging (not that I'm an expert in vintage things) and found this.


Got the image from this site: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1008941

It looked like Samuel Hart to me too, but those rounded corners?

Rounded?  More likely just worn.  They don't look terribly rounded.

For all we know, these could even be reprint cards - didn't someone release a Hart deck reprint at some time?  Since the museum was incorrect on what deck these came from, I wouldn't consider it impossible that they'd be incorrect about these being the actual cards handled by Will Bill in his last-ever poker hand.

I checked the replica decks offered bu US Games Systems - no match.  The models they offer are reprints of a Dougherty deck and an L.I. Cohen deck, with the originals having been printed during the Civil War, over a decade before WIll Bill's death.

I would say that it's possible that the cards are authentic playing cards of the era, but the likelihood of them being the precise cards held in that infamous game are pretty slim.

Yeah, I think you're right.  The wear is fairly uniform, but probably wear.
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2014, 03:15:35 PM »
 

athomas16

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I just heard back from the Adams Musemum in Deadwood.  They sent me photos of the back and the front of the 8 of hearts.

Back:


Front:


Clearly these are not Squeezers.  So does anyone recognize the back pattern?  Do they date to 1876?

Upon reviewing this thread, I realize that I probably quoted the wrong post when talking about rounded corners.  The 8H picture that the museum provided has a very similar back to my Samuel Hart Deck, but mine has perfectly square corners. 

I have a friend who wanted to make a Wild Bill Display and this thread reminded me that he needed a deck of cards to commemorate how he was killed.  I went over today to present him with a deck.  Below is the deck, pictured with a Colt 4440 and holster.  The knife I believe is also period.

I believe we reproduced the hand exactly as it was described by the museum.  Check it out:
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2014, 04:08:23 PM »
 

Don Boyer

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You have a pretty sharp set of authentic props for the display.  We may never have hard evidence of the exact deck used and the exact cards held, but what the museum (and you) have presented are at least plausible.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2014, 04:17:10 PM »
 

athomas16

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You have a pretty sharp set of authentic props for the display.  We may never have hard evidence of the exact deck used and the exact cards held, but what the museum (and you) have presented are at least plausible.

Thank you, but none of that stuff is mine.  Heck, after today, I don't even own the cards.  That pistol was manufactured in 1881, clearly after Wild Bills' death, but I don't think Charlie is even pretending to be authentic.  Rather his display is "in the style of" and I think that deck of cards is perfect and will really tie it all together.
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2014, 11:31:23 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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I got the photos of the Queen of Hearts from the Adams museum:





Does this help at all?

Thanks!

 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2014, 01:13:40 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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I got the photos of the Queen of Hearts from the Adams museum:

Does this help at all?

Thanks!

Not being an expert, I find it unusual that a deck of this one's supposed age does indeed have rounded corners - but it's difficult to pin down the exact year such innovations were being put to use by manufacturers.  Additionally, despite the faces being "old fashioned" and more commonly found in faro decks than what we now know as standard decks, it is true that companies were still making cards much like this through the end of the 19th century - I've seen USPC salesman's sample books offering cards in this style alongside the designs we know today.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2014, 04:04:48 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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Hard to tell from the pix which may be distorted but the dimensions don't look right. The cards seem too long or the width too narrow. If original they would be 2.5" x 3'5".
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2014, 01:03:39 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Hard to tell from the pix which may be distorted but the dimensions don't look right. The cards seem too long or the width too narrow. If original they would be 2.5" x 3'5".

I did a little quick measuring of the Queen of Hearts.  Obviously my measurements won't be accurate due to scaling, but the ratio of height to width should remain not more than minimally changed regardless of the size of the image on the computer screen.  In this case, the ratio is very close to being the standard 7:5 one would expect in a poker-sized card, certainly close enough when accounting for image distortion.

While it could just as easily be some other measurement sharing the same ratio, like perhaps 7" by 5", 10.5" by 7.5", 5.25" by 3.75", etc., the materials in the photo such as the pin holding the card sleeve in place, the fabric in the background, etc., would make it at least plausible that the cards are what we'd now call standard poker size.

Additionally, if those are the standard card sleeves I've seen and purchased in shops specializing in sports cards or collectible card games, those are specifically sized for holding 3.5" x 2.5" cards with a little room to spare, allowing for protection of the card without ruining it upon extraction and reinsertion.  The plastic used is formulated specifically to not shrink or warp under standard environmental conditions, specifically extreme naturally-occurring heat and cold.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2014, 05:59:41 PM »
 

Aoresteen

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So does the Q of H help identify the maker of the cards?
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2014, 06:30:18 PM »
 

52plusjoker

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So does the Q of H help identify the maker of the cards?
Unfortunately not precisely - that queen is common to what are often called one-way Faro courts which originated in the early years Of Samuel Hart, Charles Bartlet [likely another maker that was really Hart, Ball, etc.]. Probability is Samuel Hart which by 1870's was NYCC
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2014, 02:13:55 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Early deck designs were frequently copies of previous deck designs.  In Rouen, France, they'd make cards to sell to the British, who would copy them, make them on their own and sell them to the Americans (and probably the Canadians as well!), who would in turn copy them and make them on their own to sell to whomever wanted them.  It's interesting because much like a child's game of "Telephone", the design often changes just a little from one copy to the next, and the accumulated changes can make for a much bigger difference from the original generation.  Sometimes this was intentional, the artist's way of putting his own imprimatur on the work, while other times it was simply a series of errors in copying.

Consider the King of Hearts - when first created in the Rouen style, he didn't have a sword behind his head (not through it, like most people believe when they call him the Suicide King).  Instead, it was an axe carried over his shoulder.  You'd never in a million years guess that was the case based on common, present-day designs.

To a limited extent, you can try working out the printer and the age of the deck from those changes, but it would be more like guesswork than an exact science, especially when factoring in designers' proclivity to copy designs from other designers.

If it was a later deck, and you knew the printer, you'd have a better chance of using courts to determine age.  USPC courts are pretty distinctive and have gradually changed over the years - there was a really good article on this in Clear the Decks a few issues ago.
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Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2023, 03:24:08 PM »
 

Lowrunner

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Were the cards he used square? Were there any numbers on cards. I'm trying to replicate it just for fun on my wine barrel with the glass table top over the top of it. Thank you for your time
 

Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2023, 02:40:24 AM »
 

Don Boyer

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Were the cards he used square? Were there any numbers on cards. I'm trying to replicate it just for fun on my wine barrel with the glass table top over the top of it. Thank you for your time

It's a shame that so many of the photos in this thread are lost to dead links.  It's why I keep encouraging people to upload their photos instead of simply linking to them - too many topics have lost a lot of their relevance because of dead links.

Anyway, regarding Mr. Hickok's cards, they were almost certainly square-cornered, without indices, and while we know he was holding a pair of Aces and a pair of Eights, there's been much debate over what the fifth card was, and even what the exact suits of the Aces and Eights were.

You could probably replicate the look of the old cards using some parchment-like heavy paper or printing the cards onto white cardstock and aging them with used teabags (old D&D DM's trick).  I'd suggest using a guillotine-style paper cutter - you'll get much straighter lines with them.
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