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Playing Card Chat ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦ => A Cellar of Fine Vintages => Topic started by: 52plusjoker on February 10, 2014, 02:31:28 PM
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What do you want to find out about an old vintage card or deck? Whatever your question, this is the place to find the answers to what’s puzzling you. We have lined up several of the vintage/antique collectors from 52 Plus Joker to specifically respond to your questions about items that you’ve seen, have heard about or have stashed away in your collections.
We learned about older playing cards by talking to people who knew more than us. In our case we were lucky - we found a couple of local collectors who knew a lot more than we did. They could often answer us easily, and if they didn’t know, could point us in the right direction. They also suggested books we should have and convinced us that research was an integral part of collecting. Slowly our knowledge grew. Eventually the point came when we were being asked more than we were asking! This is true for many members of 52 Plus joker and in this instant communication age makes the availability of expert information for you close at hand and easy to obtain.
We look forward to your specific questions. We, and other members of 52+J, will monitor this post daily and try to ensure we get the right expert to the card table to take our best shot at your answer.
Judy & Tom Dawson
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Question for you, Tom: if you see a USPCC "tax stamp" that says "1 Deck" on it as opposed to a certain amount (3 cents, 5 cents, etc) is that definitely a sign that it's a reproduction?
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Question for you, Tom: if you see a USPCC "tax stamp" that says "1 Deck" on it as opposed to a certain amount (3 cents, 5 cents, etc) is that definitely a sign that it's a reproduction?
Three points here - the US government stopped putting amounts on the stamps around 1940 so they could increase tax without 'it being noticed
- from then until 1965 the stamps said "one pack"
- I've never seen "one deck" so if i saw one I'd assume a repro from Asia or somewhere
Hope this helps
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Question for you, Tom: if you see a USPCC "tax stamp" that says "1 Deck" on it as opposed to a certain amount (3 cents, 5 cents, etc) is that definitely a sign that it's a reproduction?
Three points here - the US government stopped putting amounts on the stamps around 1940 so they could increase tax without 'it being noticed
- from then until 1965 the stamps said "one pack"
- I've never seen "one deck" so if i saw one I'd assume a repro from Asia or somewhere
Hope this helps
That's probably exactly what it says, I'm looking at a picture and all I can make out is the big numeral "1" and the "xxCK" underneath and it does have the Internal Revenue semi-circular banner beneath it abbreviated. The seal is 'bent' over the edge of the deck top and the first two letters are out of focus. I do remember the AoS has a "T1234" (don't remember digits) code, so that would indicate 1954 because as you noted there were no tax stamps used after 1965 and T is 1914/34/54/74/94 (and I would suppose 2014 although it's not in the cheat sheet on Lee's site). 1954 is a good year for me to collect! ;^)
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Question for you, Tom: if you see a USPCC "tax stamp" that says "1 Deck" on it as opposed to a certain amount (3 cents, 5 cents, etc) is that definitely a sign that it's a reproduction?
Three points here - the US government stopped putting amounts on the stamps around 1940 so they could increase tax without 'it being noticed
- from then until 1965 the stamps said "one pack"
- I've never seen "one deck" so if i saw one I'd assume a repro from Asia or somewhere
Hope this helps
That's probably exactly what it says, I'm looking at a picture and all I can make out is the big numeral "1" and the "xxCK" underneath and it does have the Internal Revenue semi-circular banner beneath it abbreviated. The seal is 'bent' over the edge of the deck top and the first two letters are out of focus. I do remember the AoS has a "T1234" (don't remember digits) code, so that would indicate 1954 because as you noted there were no tax stamps used after 1965 and T is 1914/34/54/74/94 (and I would suppose 2014 although it's not in the cheat sheet on Lee's site). 1954 is a good year for me to collect! ;^)
Sounds on the money to me. We're probably only now starting to see decks manufactured in January making it into stores, so the new letter code should reveal itself soon. They've been changing things around lately in terms of letter sequence and letters used so one can't make assumptions.
In recent years, the letter code has also become less necessary since they started prefixing it with a four digit code - the first two digits are the week of the year it was printed, the last two digits are the last two digits of the year it was printed. I have no idea when they started this practice, but it's recent - and welcomed! It allows for much more precise dating of a deck. If forced to guess, I'd say it started with the new print shop in Erlanger - but it's strictly a guess. The only problem with the codes, at least for the modern custom collector, is that most custom decks don't have the codes on them unless it was a deck designed by USPC for their own distribution channels rather than a contract job for a client.
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Sounds reasonable, Don, but I know I've seen plenty of Erlanger decks that don't have a 4-digit number before the AoS code. I'm thinking more recent, but no doubt if you can tell which week of the year it was made it definitely narrows it down even more. That coding system is pretty common, though most (overseas) seem to make it YYWW instead of WWYY, had been used on computer chips and similar for decades, actually. If you've seen the inside of a computer you've seen them stamped on anything we used to call "solid state" which is basically everything these days but hard drive reading arms. 9401 being the first week of January '94 for example.
I found this little jewel on ebay and swooped it last night, wondered if Tom might could ID it. Pretty obvious it's an Aristocrat pair, but beyond that without opening it I'm not going to be able to tell much. I'll post some pix and see what you think. (and yes, Tom - I know you're in Florida right now, so take your time - absolutely no hurry, just curious - as always!)
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That's a cool-looking two-deck set! Nice find.
The four digits preceding the letter in the AoS code have only recently been implemented as an indicator of year and week of manufacture. Older decks do have in many cases numbers that precede the letter, but it was some internal tracking system USPC was using and didn't represent anything else. It wouldn't surprise me to learn the practice of four-digit dating is less than a decade old, perhaps even much less.
I've been inside computers on many an occasion. By trade, my dad was an electrician, but by training, he was a full-blown electrical engineer minus the college degree and knew his way around circuit boards. We built a science fair project together in the late-1970s - a digital clock that used the cycles in alternating current as the timing device of the clock itself, making it accurate to +/- 1 second/50,000 years, albeit far too expensive to ever see commercial production...
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Question for you, Tom: if you see a USPCC "tax stamp" that says "1 Deck" on it as opposed to a certain amount (3 cents, 5 cents, etc) is that definitely a sign that it's a reproduction?
Three points here - the US government stopped putting amounts on the stamps around 1940 so they could increase tax without 'it being noticed
- from then until 1965 the stamps said "one pack"
- I've never seen "one deck" so if i saw one I'd assume a repro from Asia or somewhere
Hope this helps
That's probably exactly what it says, I'm looking at a picture and all I can make out is the big numeral "1" and the "xxCK" underneath and it does have the Internal Revenue semi-circular banner beneath it abbreviated. The seal is 'bent' over the edge of the deck top and the first two letters are out of focus. I do remember the AoS has a "T1234" (don't remember digits) code, so that would indicate 1954 because as you noted there were no tax stamps used after 1965 and T is 1914/34/54/74/94 (and I would suppose 2014 although it's not in the cheat sheet on Lee's site). 1954 is a good year for me to collect! ;^)
Now you've caught me talking to myself. Not really, I just didn't think modifying the OP would make sense in this case, since it's UP yonder somewhere.
Anyway, got those cards I was thinking about, Steamboat 999's in sealed pack and one unsealed identical. AoS is "T" code, but the Joker is the generic PC one, vice the original currently politically incorrect version. I'm assuming that since it does have a tax stamp, it has to be 1954 as I surmised before I had it in-hand.
Now I get to wondering, when did they switch out the collectible card for the generic "2nd Joker" with a star in each corner?
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Will chip in tomorrow with some thoughts.
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While I'm on the thought process about vintage decks, I have a couple of older Russell Blue Ribbon #323 decks in 'raw' condition and noticed when I was looking at my Hochman's that I don't see the matching 929 Pinochle deck listed. It's relatively common as I recall. Am I missing something, or just an oversight? Somebody in the family sent me 5 or 6 of those about two years ago and I never really got very deep into them simply because they're just in tolerable condition, nowhere near what I would pay for or seek out. They are all opened so I will find them and do a little spelunking to insure that I didn't miss anything on my side, but as I noted I didn't really get into them too much, just filed them away. Are "Red" Ribbon versions on this as common as the blue ones? As I recall I have at least one red of each, also. Again, very common deck that I can remember seeing around my grandfather's house when I was a kid, so likely worth about $5 if I taped a Lincoln on the back of the tuck.
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Hi Mike
Post a pix or two. Many brands of the various companies had smaller related issues like Pinochle, Seconds, For Export, etc. These often got a related brand #. Hope this helps a little. By the way there are surely many other variations we didn't/don't know about to common brands. In many cases they are not, in my view, important enough to list.
Thanks for your interest and questions.
Tom
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Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
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Hi Mike
Post a pix or two. Many brands of the various companies had smaller related issues like Pinochle, Seconds, For Export, etc. These often got a related brand #. Hope this helps a little. By the way there are surely many other variations we didn't/don't know about to common brands. In many cases they are not, in my view, important enough to list.
Thanks for your interest and questions.
Tom
OK, I'll de-flate my estimate and say with a $5 bill attached, it's now worth $4.99 ;D
Likely precisely the case, Tom! As I recall they are all sitting inside the ziplock bag that they were sent in, but I'll ferret them out and see if they are even worthy of a pix or three. They're just the typical old Russell Blue Ribbon decks, nothing fancy, certainly nothing special - just remember two were 929's vice 323's. Almost certain they are the variety that's worthy of a $20 if they're mint per Hochman's addendum & pricing guide 2004 / 2nd edition, and they aren't even close...
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Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
The only information I can give you would be that the design was revived by USPC last year as a bridge-sized Bicycle deck in a single color, black, with a similar though not identical back design.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/products/playing-card/bicycle-double-nine-domino-deck
It's been updated a little, with a three-dimensional effect for the spots, but the typeface for the indices looks the same or close to it.
I do have an interesting question of my own, though - at what point did playing card sizes become standardized, and at what point were narrow (bridge-sized) and miniature playing cards developed?
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Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
These little sets are neat. They are not uncommon and are quite collectible by pc and games collectors. Haven't seen a set for a couple of years. Being USPC they just used a standard card back design of the time. They also put out a neat Poker Dice deck a little earlier which is hard to find. You should also know that the Fireside Game Co, which became the Cincinnati Game Co. and made a series of card games, many of which are very attractive, was also a USPC company.
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The only information I can give you would be that the design was revived by USPC last year as a bridge-sized Bicycle deck in a single color, black, with a similar though not identical back design.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/products/playing-card/bicycle-double-nine-domino-deck
It's been updated a little, with a three-dimensional effect for the spots, but the typeface for the indices looks the same or close to it.
I do have an interesting question of my own, though - at what point did playing card sizes become standardized, and at what point were narrow (bridge-sized) and miniature playing cards developed?
Complicated question about standard sizes. Quick answer is dependent on countries. In America, early cards were about the size of their English counterparts, similar to what we today call wide or Poker size. In the 1880's National PCC and USPC and NYCC developed narrower [by 1/4 inch] cards advertised for Whist where 13 cards needed to spread out in a dainty female hand. These sizes remain the standard of today. Miniature or Patience [Solitaire] cards go way back into the early years of European manufacture. There are really no standards there - for example USPC over the years had at least five sizes of smaller decks ranging from Fauntleroy to Bicycle Junior
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Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
Hi Adam
Very nice set but probably not in the original case (yours looks like a nice old one, possibly period to the cards).
If memory serves me, USPC made two small domino sets; the first, the size of regular dominos, the second slightly larger. Both types came in a burgundy colored slipcase and both had red and white speckled backs. However your cards could possibly have been packaged in a tuckcase.
I do not recall seeing many of these over the years, we did own one set once but not in its original box.
Nice find - rare? Maybe!!
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I never did post those Russell Blue Ribbon decks:
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What is the name of the back on the 929's - I like it!
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What is the name of the back on the 929's - I like it!
The 929 (Pinochle) decks are Rosette and Fillegree designs.
The two 323 (poker) decks are both Urn back - red & blue.
These are the ones that I remember my granddad having when I was a kid...
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Did someone say something about computer boxes and circuit boards?.... No? I'll just mosey on then. You nerds keep up the good work. :bosswalk:
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Anybody familiar with this? It's my only older deck, maybe from a family trip to Europe in the 60s or early 70s. The tuck box says "Made in Belgium" and "The Royal Pavilion at Brighton" and nothing else. The kings are all gouty and the queens have a (much milder) Hotcakes flavor, the courts are kind of cute. The deck is small (bridge size? I really don't know).
I've had it forever (long before the collecting mania hit) and while it's probably not very interesting to you august personages I've finally gotten my nerve up to ask about it.
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Anybody familiar with this? It's my only older deck, maybe from a family trip to Europe in the 60s or early 70s. The tuck box says "Made in Belgium" and "The Royal Pavilion at Brighton" and nothing else. The kings are all gouty and the queens have a (much milder) Hotcakes flavor, the courts are kind of cute. The deck is small (bridge size? I really don't know).
I've had it forever (long before the collecting mania hit) and while it's probably not very interesting to you august personages I've finally gotten my nerve up to ask about it.
Belgian? Odd, it's sold in Britain, Brighton is a suburb of London. If it is Belgian it could be Bierman or Cartimumdi or others depending on the age, but it appears to be a 60's style deck. Probably made in Tiernhout (not certain of spelling) where the World Playing Cards Museum is located.
It would be better if we could see more of the tuck case, maybe other side or edges? Any more clues on those? It doesn't appear to be a typical Waddington or de la Rue deck, those are British. Strange one, but them again unusual decks are usually more collectible.
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Thanks, Mike! Guesses welcome. I've added a couple shots of the tuck, the other edges are just the red design. At a guess, these may have been bought in a Marks & Spencer in London in 1967 or 68. Or maybe handed out on an airline en route (??) As you can see it's been pretty much beat up.....It _does_ seem odd, the lack of info on the tuck. The AofS is very plain.
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Well, I take back my assertion that the rest of the tuck would help. It is a generic "White Box" design, maybe due to the bawdy content? Unfortunately I have no further clues. Interesting, though!
There were 4 makers in Tiernhout at one point, but names escape me beyond the two already stated.
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This is a souvenir deck for the Royal Pavilon - made in Belgium as the publisher would have got it produced cheaper [in the same way you will see souvenir decks for USA sites that are made in Hong Kong]. Probably made in Tournout by what is now Carta Mundi.
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Interesting. I don't associate Belgium with inexpensive goods.....
thanks Tom!
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Interesting. I don't associate Belgium with inexpensive goods.....
thanks Tom!
I don't either, Tom, but at one point there was Carti Mundi (AKA Cartimundi these days), Bierman and at least two other deck makers in Turnhout, Belgium. It's the home of the World Playing Cards Museum. There's bound to be a low cost maker amongst the lot, and CM has a large custom deck making group.
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Hi ;)
I have some questions for the experts because I found recently several very interesting documents about the creation of some antique decks, antique backs and especially, with the name of the creators. Did you know these documents and the existence of these patents ? If yes, can you explain me why the name of these people (John Omwake, Alfred J. Manning, etc...) do not appear in the Hochman encyclopedia ? Thank you in advance for your help.
Here are some photos of these patents and I have all the PDF files if you are interested.
a+ Max
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Here are other pictures of the patents
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I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.
As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!
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I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.
As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!
Thank you very much for your quickly answer Tom and no problem for the copies. I can send you an archive (RAR or ZIP file) with all the PDF files on your mail address, if you want.
As you say, the research work must be enormous and I understand completely that these names do not appear in the Hochman for that reason. However, when we see what these people have create (major ace of spades and very known backs), I admit that it would be interesting to see them (the most important) in the encyclopedia, if only to pay tribute to their nice work.
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You do realize that "U S Printing Company" is the same company that became US Playing Card Company, right? Omwake is one of their major early designers, and one of the two patents you showed of his is a major well-known back produced by "Bicycle" brand cards.
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You do realize that "U S Printing Company" is the same company that became US Playing Card Company, right? Omwake is one of their major early designers, and one of the two patents you showed of his is a major well-known back produced by "Bicycle" brand cards.
Thank you very much Mike but yes, I know that :)
However, could you speak me a little more about J.D McCracken ? What place had he exactly in the company please ?
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Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?
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I would be happy to get copies of the pdf files as they may provide information that would be relevant to the next edition of the Encyclopedia.
As far as patents go, there are literally thousands involving playing card design and hundreds if not thousands of people who applied for patents. I guess the purpose of the Encyclopedia is to catalogue all the brands of all the makers, so that collectors can identify them. A secondary purpose is to provide information and color about the companies themselves. There never was an intention to make Hochman a scholarly treatise on the people involved in the manufacture, other than a few principals of the major companies. The type of research and information need to delve in the history of each design is a subject for another study - by someone with a lot of time on their hands!
Thank you very much for your quickly answer Tom and no problem for the copies. I can send you an archive (RAR or ZIP file) with all the PDF files on your mail address, if you want.
As you say, the research work must be enormous and I understand completely that these names do not appear in the Hochman for that reason. However, when we see what these people have create (major ace of spades and very known backs), I admit that it would be interesting to see them (the most important) in the encyclopedia, if only to pay tribute to their nice work.
I will be pleased to get the files by PDF in Zip format. You make a good point about the Encyclopedia. As we plan on revising it, I think it would be a good idea to put in some information on some of the unmentioned, until now, people who had a large influence on change and design. Your research and papers will be very helpful in that regard.
Thanks
Tom
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Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?
There is a Cincinnati souvenir deck that has pictures of some of these people, because US Printing was so important to the city as an employer, etc. However it is very scarce and expensive if you can find it.
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
Many thanks for the sharing Mike, this photo is a real treasure!! Would it be possible to have an enlarged copy in high definition please ?
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Do you know if there is an antique/vintage deck (as the Stage #65 or Monarch Bicycle) or other ephemera which represents the us manufacturers please ? I ask you that because I'm looking for portraits of us makers and I only found Andrew Dougherty for the moment. I'm very interested to find A. O. Russell, Robert J. Morgan and Samuel J. Murray but do you think that it's possible?
There is a Cincinnati souvenir deck that has pictures of some of these people, because US Printing was so important to the city as an employer, etc. However it is very scarce and expensive if you can find it.
Do you have possibly the name of the souvenir deck please Tom ? About the patents, I sent you PDF files in ZIP format on your mail address. At the moment, there are only 17 files but if I find other interesting, I shall also send them to you.
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
Many thanks for the sharing Mike, this photo is a real treasure!! Would it be possible to have an enlarged copy in high definition please ?
The original for this image looks just like you see posted, very 'washed-out' and also has that "lenticular" bulge on the right side. I suppose someone could tackle it with either PhotoShop or Illustrator and do it some justice, but I'm afraid that that's what I have - for now. I'll have one of my graphic artists take a shot at it and see what they can do. As far as I know this photo is previously unknown, and I purposefully only showed about 1/3rd of the image that I have. (and "lenticular" may or may not be the proper word. It has to do with magnifying classes used contemporarily for "3D" or holographic images, but I think that is correct)
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.
LOL, Tom! I was hoping maybe one of the faces you had seen in pictures, Tom... Lordy, you have a sense of humor quite like mine!
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I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.
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If you find these photos, I would be very happy to see them if possible. I discovered Omwake and McCracken faces recently but it would be a pleasure to have other interesting informations about the persons of The Printi-playing Card Company..
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Tom is definitely the historian amongst us, but I know enough to blow my toes off one at a time if I aim well.
I did find an interesting picture recently that I was told hasn't been published, but I was also told that the two or three gentlemen on the far right are the principles, one supposedly Morgan. Tom, do they look familiar to you? I don't know them "on sight". I was told this shot was taken about 1901 in Norwood (suburb of Cincinnati) before the "clock tower" was added to the front of the USPCC factory. Looks right for the period clothing-wise and everything. The photo was obviously taken with an old lenticular I think is the right word - camera. Notice the bowing in on the right edge of the picture...
I'm afraid I don't recognize anyone Mike, I was pretty young then. It is a fun photo. I do have pix of some of the principles [McCracken, Omawake, etc] somewhere and I'll try and find them.
If you find these photos, I would be very happy to see them if possible. I discovered Omwake and McCracken faces recently but it would be a pleasure to have other interesting informations about the persons of The Printi-playing Card Company..
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I'll try and find time to search on the weekend.
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Hello here!
Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.
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Hello here!
Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.
Yes we had a Circus deck with the Hippodrome back and have seen others. The one we have now is the Equestrienne in brown. I think both versions used both backs.
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Hello here!
Have you ever seen somewhere, except in sample books, a Circus #47 deck with the Hippodrome back please ?
Do you think that this back is rarer than the Equestrienne and do you know if these two different backs were issued with the two versions US21 and US21a please ? Many thanks in advance for your help.
Yes we had a Circus deck with the Hippodrome back and have seen others. The one we have now is the Equestrienne in brown. I think both versions used both backs.
Thank you very much for your help Tom ;)
About this deck, Rod says : "This is a very rare deck even though it was in production for quite a long time. However, it may possibly have been made for children thus resulting in a very low survival rate." Do you agree with that and do you think that it's really difficult to find a Circus #47 deck in good condition today ?
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
Can you give me an equivalent word to scarce please Tom ? Scarce is just rare or rather extremely rare ?
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
Can you give me an equivalent word to scarce please Tom ? Scarce is just rare or rather extremely rare ?
Very hard to find; in short supply; rare
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
Can you give me an equivalent word to scarce please Tom ? Scarce is just rare or rather extremely rare ?
Very hard to find; in short supply; rare
Thank you very much Tom!
Just for another example, can we say that the Tourists #155 is a scarce deck ?
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
Can you give me an equivalent word to scarce please Tom ? Scarce is just rare or rather extremely rare ?
Very hard to find; in short supply; rare
Thank you very much Tom!
Just for another example, can we say that the Tourists #155 is a scarce deck ?
Hochman US9 is scarce - US9a, b, c not quite as scarce
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These Circus decks are very scarce in mint or near mint condition - and will sell for c$1000.
Can you give me an equivalent word to scarce please Tom ? Scarce is just rare or rather extremely rare ?
Very hard to find; in short supply; rare
Thank you very much Tom!
Just for another example, can we say that the Tourists #155 is a scarce deck ?
Hochman US9 is scarce - US9a, b, c not quite as scarce
I think I understand the distinction but for the different versions of the Tourists deck, you say that the Hochman US9 is scarce only because of the number of prints or also due to its age and because it's the first version please ?
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Scarce because you hardly ever see one
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I think I understand the distinction but for the different versions of the Tourists deck, you say that the Hochman US9 is scarce only because of the number of prints or also due to its age and because it's the first version please ?
Quantities printed on older decks aren't always available - I'd say the public discovers them infrequently to rarely, in fact. Scarcity it just that, they are few known to exist. A few thousand or a few hundred thousand might have been printed, but today, for a variety of reasons, few are left. There are almost countless scenarios explaining why a vintage or antique deck would be rare - or common.
For the Circus deck, it's rare because the deck was aimed at a children's audience, perhaps even sold at actual circuses. Just as few of their comic books, board games and toys survive, so, too, do few of their decks of playing cards.
For something like the War Series, they didn't get printed until the year the war ended, so someone at USPC made an executive decision and ceased production on the decks, giving them an unusually short print run. The decks were being promoted to be played with, so I'm thinking some decent amount of that production run was lost to wear and tear. Thus, another rare deck (four decks, actually, not counting color variants).
Certain souvenir decks aimed at adults (like the Brown Derby deck) would have two factors determining surviving quantity - they'd be scarce because there were few places where they could have been purchased in the first place, thus probably had limited distribution, but the decks that were distributed would have had a better chance of survival because souvenirs of that type are often left unused, either displayed on a shelf or dropped into a drawer and buried in the back of it.
Then there's the Bicycle Rider Back - undoubtedly the most common Bicycle back printed, probably in continuous production since it was first introduced in 1893. Sure, many got used up, but so many more were made that they're all over the place. Plenty of old decks still exist.
You can, see, though, there are factors that come into play besides the size of the print run, a number that's often lost to antiquity.
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Scarce because you hardly ever see one
Thank you for the additional info Tom, I understand better the purest sense of this word..
Now in any case, I am sure of the scarcity contained in this link : http://www.ebay.com/itm/400740343543?clk_rvr_id=666505836561
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I think I understand the distinction but for the different versions of the Tourists deck, you say that the Hochman US9 is scarce only because of the number of prints or also due to its age and because it's the first version please ?
Quantities printed on older decks aren't always available - I'd say the public discovers them infrequently to rarely, in fact. Scarcity it just that, they are few known to exist. A few thousand or a few hundred thousand might have been printed, but today, for a variety of reasons, few are left. There are almost countless scenarios explaining why a vintage or antique deck would be rare - or common.
For the Circus deck, it's rare because the deck was aimed at a children's audience, perhaps even sold at actual circuses. Just as few of their comic books, board games and toys survive, so, too, do few of their decks of playing cards.
For something like the War Series, they didn't get printed until the year the war ended, so someone at USPC made an executive decision and ceased production on the decks, giving them an unusually short print run. The decks were being promoted to be played with, so I'm thinking some decent amount of that production run was lost to wear and tear. Thus, another rare deck (four decks, actually, not counting color variants).
Certain souvenir decks aimed at adults (like the Brown Derby deck) would have two factors determining surviving quantity - they'd be scarce because there were few places where they could have been purchased in the first place, thus probably had limited distribution, but the decks that were distributed would have had a better chance of survival because souvenirs of that type are often left unused, either displayed on a shelf or dropped into a drawer and buried in the back of it.
Then there's the Bicycle Rider Back - undoubtedly the most common Bicycle back printed, probably in continuous production since it was first introduced in 1893. Sure, many got used up, but so many more were made that they're all over the place. Plenty of old decks still exist.
You can, see, though, there are factors that come into play besides the size of the print run, a number that's often lost to antiquity.
Thank you so much for this excellent summary Don. It's a real pleasure to read you, sincerely!
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Nabbed these today but I need someone to look them up and give me info on them. I am packed for a move across country, and alas all my Hochman encyclopedias are boxed up. I grabbed them for the unique joker and ace which were both examples I don't currently own. The ace says Copyright 1900. I know they are Congress and they are titled spinning wheel, but are they particularly common or scarce? Either way, glad to be getting them because I don't yet have any wide Congress.
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Nabbed these today but I need someone to look them up and give me info on them. I am packed for a move across country, and alas all my Hochman encyclopedias are boxed up. I grabbed them for the unique joker and ace which were both examples I don't currently own. The ace says Copyright 1900. I know they are Congress and they are titled spinning wheel, but are they particularly common or scarce? Either way, glad to be getting them because I don't yet have any wide Congress.
This is Hochman US6c - one of the more intricate Aces. Nice to have the matching Joker which is much less common. Most Congress decks from late 1800's to WWI start had named backs. The exceptions are when they made a matching Joker they did not name the back [on the bottom of the back].They are certainly 1900-1905 vintage. Nice Find!
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Thank you!
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Thank you so much for this excellent summary Don. It's a real pleasure to read you, sincerely!
Aw, you're makin' me blush! (Bonus points if you can tell me the movie the quote is from!)
Nabbed these today but I need someone to look them up and give me info on them. I am packed for a move across country, and alas all my Hochman encyclopedias are boxed up. I grabbed them for the unique joker and ace which were both examples I don't currently own. The ace says Copyright 1900. I know they are Congress and they are titled spinning wheel, but are they particularly common or scarce? Either way, glad to be getting them because I don't yet have any wide Congress.
That is a really gorgeous deck of cards you have there! Fantastic!
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Thank you so much for this excellent summary Don. It's a real pleasure to read you, sincerely!
Aw, you're makin' me blush! (Bonus points if you can tell me the movie the quote is from!)
Nabbed these today but I need someone to look them up and give me info on them. I am packed for a move across country, and alas all my Hochman encyclopedias are boxed up. I grabbed them for the unique joker and ace which were both examples I don't currently own. The ace says Copyright 1900. I know they are Congress and they are titled spinning wheel, but are they particularly common or scarce? Either way, glad to be getting them because I don't yet have any wide Congress.
That is a really gorgeous deck of cards you have there! Fantastic!
Lol Don!! Ok.. I give you the movie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D_QKY0_Bxk ;)
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Aw, you're makin' me blush! (Bonus points if you can tell me the movie the quote is from!)
Lol Don!! Ok.. I give you the movie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D_QKY0_Bxk ;)
Actually, this is a little embarrassing - I've been misquoting the line! The line is supposed to be "Stop it. I'm gettin' misty." It's spoken by Mel Gibson playing "Carter" in the movie "Payback" - an excellent example of a revenge movie with a fair amount of film noir mixed in. I might have seen that line in an ad for the movie - sometimes scenes get changed after the movie trailer is made and something you see in the clip might end up on the cutting room floor instead of in the movie. Studios can usually get away with it if the lost clip is still in the spirit of the film itself rather than some radical, game-changing moment.
I did check the "Pulp Fiction" quotes at IMDB - the word "blush" doesn't appear in any of them!
But enough of my tangent... :))
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I found recently antique documents printed by Russell & Morgan. Do you think that John Robinsons, on the pix below, is the same person of the partnership with A. O. Russell and Robert J. Morgan ?
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I found recently antique documents printed by Russell & Morgan. Do you think that John Robinsons, on the pix below, is the same person of the partnership with A. O. Russell and Robert J. Morgan ?
I don't know if this answers your question, but R&M was a printing shop before they were a playing card company, specializing in just this kind of print work - circus/performance posters and the like. This could simply be one of their print jobs for that particular circus. It seems more logical.
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I found recently antique documents printed by Russell & Morgan. Do you think that John Robinsons, on the pix below, is the same person of the partnership with A. O. Russell and Robert J. Morgan ?
It is certainly possible as one of Russell & Morgan's silent partners was John F. Robinson - seems a logical inference as R&M, as Don pointed out, were big in printing circus posters before they branched out in playing cards.
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Aw, you're makin' me blush! (Bonus points if you can tell me the movie the quote is from!)
Lol Don!! Ok.. I give you the movie : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D_QKY0_Bxk ;)
Actually, this is a little embarrassing - I've been misquoting the line! The line is supposed to be "Stop it. I'm gettin' misty." It's spoken by Mel Gibson playing "Carter" in the movie "Payback" - an excellent example of a revenge movie with a fair amount of film noir mixed in. I might have seen that line in an ad for the movie - sometimes scenes get changed after the movie trailer is made and something you see in the clip might end up on the cutting room floor instead of in the movie. Studios can usually get away with it if the lost clip is still in the spirit of the film itself rather than some radical, game-changing moment.
I did check the "Pulp Fiction" quotes at IMDB - the word "blush" doesn't appear in any of them!
But enough of my tangent... :))
I was gonna go with Breakfast At Tiffany's
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I've been trying for a long time to find out what this deck of cards I have is called. Have not been able to find brand or anything about it. I got the deck when I was thirteen. It was a deck that one of my uncles had when they were younger. Hopefully someone knows something. Pic is attached, if any more are required let me know. Size is 2 and a fourth wide and 4 and half in height.
Thanks
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I've been trying for a long time to find out what this deck of cards I have is called. Have not been able to find brand or anything about it. I got the deck when I was thirteen. It was a deck that one of my uncles had when they were younger. Hopefully someone knows something. Pic is attached, if any more are required let me know. Size is 2 and a fourth wide and 4 and half in height.
Thanks
Hi - would like to help but picture is too fuzzy. Can you add some clarity?
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Here are some more pics. If these are no good I will take some pics with my actual camera and post tomorrow. Just using my phones camera right now.
Thanks
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I've been trying for a long time to find out what this deck of cards I have is called. Have not been able to find brand or anything about it. I got the deck when I was thirteen. It was a deck that one of my uncles had when they were younger. Hopefully someone knows something. Pic is attached, if any more are required let me know. Size is 2 and a fourth wide and 4 and half in height.
Thanks
Wow - that's an atypical size, for certain. 50% taller than a bridge card, same width.
You go the deck at age thirteen - what year was that? It could help. Also, which country are you in?
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I've been trying for a long time to find out what this deck of cards I have is called. Have not been able to find brand or anything about it. I got the deck when I was thirteen. It was a deck that one of my uncles had when they were younger. Hopefully someone knows something. Pic is attached, if any more are required let me know. Size is 2 and a fourth wide and 4 and half in height.
Thanks
Wow - that's an atypical size, for certain. 50% taller than a bridge card, same width.
You go the deck at age thirteen - what year was that? It could help. Also, which country are you in?
It would have been around 2001. No telling how long one of my uncles had the deck. Asked them none could remember the deck or who's deck it was. I mean these cards could be 50 plus years old I've had them for 13 years now. Just guessing because the last time any of them lived at home they werev18 years old maybe a few years older before leaving home. My mom and her family are from Maine that's where I got them from when I visited one year.
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How about a photo of a few faces - especially the jokers (if you have them) and the Ace of Spades? That might give us more information.
I'd say with maybe 98% certainty that this wasn't printed by USPC. It's more like a tarot-sized card, and US Games Systems holds a near-monopoly on printed tarot decks.
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How about a photo of a few faces - especially the jokers (if you have them) and the Ace of Spades? That might give us more information.
I'd say with maybe 98% certainty that this wasn't printed by USPC. It's more like a tarot-sized card, and US Games Systems holds a near-monopoly on printed tarot decks.
I dont have the jokers. They weren't with the deck. I just noticed that the ace of spades says Whitman. That makes me feel stupid. Anyways here's a pic. Maybe now I can refine my search.
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Whitman a relatively scarce maker - 1950's- 1960's. Nice keepsake.
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Whitman a relatively scarce maker - 1950's- 1960's. Nice keepsake.
That's cool. I would like to find out more if I can. Can't believe I just now noticed the Whitman on the ace facepalm lol. Here's some more pics hopefully I'll find the actual deck and more info.
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"Old Gypsy" is Whitman, as I recall?
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Does anyone know when the USPCC stopped printing Aristocrat banknote cards ? I've seen decks with a blue USPCC seal and a red cellophane seal but didnt know if they were genuine
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Does anyone know when the USPCC stopped printing Aristocrat banknote cards ? I've seen decks with a blue USPCC seal and a red cellophane seal but didnt know if they were genuine
If you're referring to the recent reprint, that was a single print run and done, as far as I know. They're easily distinguished from the originals from the marker's markings on the box as well as the Ace of Spades having an "A" for Aristocrat instead of the original "R" for Russell.
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Sorry what I meant was did the USPCC still print the banknotes in the late 80s early 90s. I know the 2011 reprint had a gold seal but these have the blue seal
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Sorry what I meant was did the USPCC still print the banknotes in the late 80s early 90s. I know the 2011 reprint had a gold seal but these have the blue seal
This site states they were made until the early 1980s:
http://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/product/aristocrat-727-banknote-playing-cards
Jim Knapp says pretty much the same thing, adding it was only the consumer model that was discontinued and the brand continued to be used for casino decks.
http://www.jimknapp.com/Cards/Non-Bicycle.htm
The World of Playing Cards has nothing directly to add regarding the deck's end date, but they make mention of two works by Rod Starling: his book The Art and Pleasures of Playing Cards and an article from the Sept. 2011 issue of CtD called "American Bank Note Pictorials." They could help, and if you don't have that issue handy, I'm sure that "Ask Alexander" does!
http://www.wopc.co.uk/usa/american-bank-note-company.html
I couldn't find much else, but it was only a cursory web search from Google.
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I won an antique National price-list in December on eBay :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-Playing-Cards-catalog-page-chromolithograph-antique-original-1893-/131375867081?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=vyZvRTSBLDuznM%252FaD6I8z9vNIwo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc
I paid this list $26 but do you think that it could have a little more value for a possible resale or exchange please ?
I received that last week and the list is in excellent condition without any default.
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Hi Tom,
I've just registered here and am trying to find my way around the forum. Don't know if this is the right spot or way to ask a question, but here's one that I have had since August 2012, when I could add the Hustling Joe deck to our collection. Why do all the Jacks in that deck have a feather on their hat? Does this have a special meaning or what's the meaning of this feather in general. In regular Anglo-American patterned decks the Jack of Hearts sometimes holds a feather.
All the best to you and Judy,
Joop Muller
What do you want to find out about an old vintage card or deck? Whatever your question, this is the place to find the answers to what’s puzzling you. We have lined up several of the vintage/antique collectors from 52 Plus Joker to specifically respond to your questions about items that you’ve seen, have heard about or have stashed away in your collections.
We learned about older playing cards by talking to people who knew more than us. In our case we were lucky - we found a couple of local collectors who knew a lot more than we did. They could often answer us easily, and if they didn’t know, could point us in the right direction. They also suggested books we should have and convinced us that research was an integral part of collecting. Slowly our knowledge grew. Eventually the point came when we were being asked more than we were asking! This is true for many members of 52 Plus joker and in this instant communication age makes the availability of expert information for you close at hand and easy to obtain.
We look forward to your specific questions. We, and other members of 52+J, will monitor this post daily and try to ensure we get the right expert to the card table to take our best shot at your answer.
Judy & Tom Dawson
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Hi Joop
I apologize - I missed this post as was in Ireland and didn't see it on return. I do not know the answer and I guess nobody else does as you've had no response. It would be great if you get the chance to post a few of your treasures for all to see.
Tom
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Got an Uncle Sam Deck With a partial 2 cent stamp. any thoughts on dating it?
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Got an Uncle Sam Deck With a partial 2 cent stamp. any thoughts on dating it?
Well the tax on cards was two cents only from 1894 to 1917, but the stamps continued to be used for many years later, with overprints that indicated the actual tax paid. The latest that I know of that these stamps were in use was 1924, being used interchangeably with the "Class A" tax stamps. We'd need some clear images of the stamp itself to see if enough of it remains to identify a ballpark range for when it was canceled. If not enough of the stamp remains, using stamps to date the deck will leave you with the range 1894-1924 - a big range.
Standard Playing Card Company was founded in 1890 but was USPC-owned by 1894, when the tax went into effect. They continued to use the company name into 1930, after which it was merged into Consolidated-Dougherty - a few years after 2-cents stamps were out of circulation. There's a chance that the Ace of Spades might show a USPC date code we could use to narrow the deck's age. If you can get a sharp picture of that, it would help. Images of some of the court cards would help as well, as there were distinctive changes to the designs used by USPC over the years.
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The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers. Here is the Ace of spades, Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Ben
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The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers. Here is the Ace of spades, Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Ben
It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck. Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.
Perhaps a few court card images?
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The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers. Here is the Ace of spades, Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Ben
It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck. Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.
Perhaps a few court card images?
Definitely within 2-3 years of 1920
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The Tax stamp is very damaged it has both black "canceled" on it and some red numbers. Here is the Ace of spades, Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Ben
It's possible those red numbers will indicate more accurately when the deck was made. Unfortunately it doesn't appear that Standard PCC was using USPC's AoS letter codes at that time, or at least it has a code that doesn't conform to the standard and can't authoritatively be used to date the deck. Tom Dawson has mentioned before that this has happened a number of times in the past, where the code couldn't accurately be used to determine age.
Perhaps a few court card images?
Definitely within 2-3 years of 1920
Then I wasn't really off-track. I had it narrowed down to 1917-1924 based on the overprinted 2-cents stamp alone.
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Could you verify if this pack of JNs is real? Thanks.
(http://i.imgur.com/MpnRzAM.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/AS7O0lV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Y1J42jr.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/SymKLDL.jpg)
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Sorry to report, but the deck pictured above is fake.
The thin security strip (which should be red), as well as the off-colored label and position gave it away. I hope you paid for these in counterfeit money because this is a counterfeit deck. ;)
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I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?
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I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?
Wow - that's a major challenge you're setting for yourself.
Have you checked in the Hochman's Encyclopedia yet? That would probably have every bit of information you need to find those decks.
BTW: when you say "standard brands," what's your definition of such? For example, Bicycle would be considered a standard brand, but there were over eighty different card backs used with the Bicycle brand name prior to 1950. Some were available for only a limited time while others were around for decades - and one, the Rider Back, was printed first in 1893 and has been in print ever since. And it wasn't their first design - the design now called the Old Fan Back is believed to be the first, in 1885. Then, it was just called the Fan Back - just as World War I was a name not used for "the Great War" until World War II took place.
Now, Bicycle was always a USPC brand, originated within the company. So let's look at the brands that originated elsewhere. Bee (NY Consolidated) is best known for the Diamond Back, and Tally Ho (A. Doughtery) is best known for two backs, the "Original Circle" back and "Original Fan" back - but both decks have had several backs over the years. Hoyle (Brown & Bigelow) today is known for their Shell Back - I'd be very surprised if it was their only design. Arrco (originally the Arrow Card Co.) has their US Regulation decks as well as their Tahoe designs...
There's a lot of possibilities, as you can see.
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I just ordered the Hochman Encyclopedia from the 52 plus Joker website, and started reading it today. Good stuff already!
I know that this might be the start of a collection that may never finish. But I guess that is what gives the pleasure of collecting: That you are never really finished, because there is always another item you can add by widening your scope. However, right now, in this part of my collection, my scope is standard American brands that can be found sealed in a box, with some kind of foil or cellophane, either outside the box, or wrapped around the cards inside.
And yes, all the brands you are mentioning are within interest, as long as they are to be found as issued in the condition described earlier. I just have to figure out, which come in a box, that originally had cellophane around it, or came sealed with a wrapper around the cards inside, so I can focus my search. The last part, the cards being wrapped in foil or another type of material inside the sealed box, is harder to discover. That's why it would be interesting to know which cards came in that condition.
For instance these "Bee" cards have wrapped cards inside box. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1940s-Sealed-Wrapper-New-York-Consolidated-Playing-Cards-Bee-Poker-Squeezers-/261836861538?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cf6b17062
However, these come in cellophane: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Bee-No-92-Playing-Cards-W-Tax-Stamp-Consolidated-Card-Co-/151666421471?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item235005eedf
Both are prospects to my collection, albeit in "as issued" condition, because they either come in cellophane or wrapped inside the sealed box. But the latter is harder to figure out, when you just see a sealed deck unopened. And I want to steer clear of decks that are sealed without cellophane and/or wrapped cards inside.
However, I am now sipping through Hochman's Part 1, so I hope to discover more :-)
I have been looking to take my collection in the direction of collecting vintage standard brands, from now closed American playing card companies, only focusing on the decks that come in standard red & blue backs, sealed and in some kind of cellophane or foil (either outside or inside the box). However, I am wondering, when did standard American playing cards start getting produced with cellophane or foil, and which companies introduced it?
Wow - that's a major challenge you're setting for yourself.
Have you checked in the Hochman's Encyclopedia yet? That would probably have every bit of information you need to find those decks.
BTW: when you say "standard brands," what's your definition of such? For example, Bicycle would be considered a standard brand, but there were over eighty different card backs used with the Bicycle brand name prior to 1950. Some were available for only a limited time while others were around for decades - and one, the Rider Back, was printed first in 1893 and has been in print ever since. And it wasn't their first design - the design now called the Old Fan Back is believed to be the first, in 1885. Then, it was just called the Fan Back - just as World War I was a name not used for "the Great War" until World War II took place.
Now, Bicycle was always a USPC brand, originated within the company. So let's look at the brands that originated elsewhere. Bee (NY Consolidated) is best known for the Diamond Back, and Tally Ho (A. Doughtery) is best known for two backs, the "Original Circle" back and "Original Fan" back - but both decks have had several backs over the years. Hoyle (Brown & Bigelow) today is known for their Shell Back - I'd be very surprised if it was their only design. Arrco (originally the Arrow Card Co.) has their US Regulation decks as well as their Tahoe designs...
There's a lot of possibilities, as you can see.
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If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century! I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well. Cellophane wrapping on the outside of the box came later - probably mid-century. I own one or two sealed decks from the 1940s that had no cellophane on them, but I'm reasonably sure that by the 1960s it was commonplace.
Furthermore, there are a few (very few) modern decks that are sold unwrapped and without cellophane of any kind. I've seen one or two, and in most cases, it's because the box was autographed by the designer or some additional feature like a custom sticker seal was added after manufacturing. Then there are the rare few decks that are handmade by the artist - they're popular enough to appear in most of the recent auctions 52 Plus Joker has held, but rare enough that they command high prices and exist in tiny quantities.
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If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century! I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well.
Interesting about the waxed or vellum paper. I wonder how you can tell that a sealed vintage deck actually have this inside the box. It is kind of sad to open a sealed vintage deck, just to check :-)
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If your prime criterion is that the deck box or the cards contained inside had to be covered in a foil or cellophane wrapper, that would cover the majority of the decks made in the last century! I don't know the exact year it occurred, but I do know that at some point in the years following World War I, decks had wrappers made of some kind of waxed or vellum paper around the cards inside the boxes - and quite probably before, as well.
Interesting about the waxed or vellum paper. I wonder how you can tell that a sealed vintage deck actually have this inside the box. It is kind of sad to open a sealed vintage deck, just to check :-)
It's not that hard to find out - if you do your research. If one deck of a single print run had a vellum wrapper with a wax USPC seal around the cards as well as a tax stamp on the box, it's a safe bet that the entire rest of the print run was originally released in the same condition with the same materials. You only need someone, somewhere, to have opened one box and for that person to tell about the experience!
A lot of information is also available in reference guides like the Hochman's Encyclopedia.
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It's not that hard to find out - if you do your research. If one deck of a single print run had a vellum wrapper with a wax USPC seal around the cards as well as a tax stamp on the box, it's a safe bet that the entire rest of the print run was originally released in the same condition with the same materials. You only need someone, somewhere, to have opened one box and for that person to tell about the experience!
A lot of information is also available in reference guides like the Hochman's Encyclopedia.
So if a deck has a single print run, and I have seen that the same deck with the box opened has the card wrapped in vellum or vax or whatever I am interested in, then I can deduce that every other deck of that type has the same type of packaging. That is simple enough.
Also, I have searched through Hochman's part 1 and 2 and both vellum and vax never shows up, and cellophane only shows up once in part 2. It seems that information about the inside packaging is fairly scarce.
Do you know of any other references, besides Hochman's, that would be good for determining single print runs, packaging details, etc.? I will also look at the material available at askalexander.org to see if anything interesting pops up, so you don't have to suggest that.
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It's not that hard to find out - if you do your research. If one deck of a single print run had a vellum wrapper with a wax USPC seal around the cards as well as a tax stamp on the box, it's a safe bet that the entire rest of the print run was originally released in the same condition with the same materials. You only need someone, somewhere, to have opened one box and for that person to tell about the experience!
A lot of information is also available in reference guides like the Hochman's Encyclopedia.
So if a deck has a single print run, and I have seen that the same deck with the box opened has the card wrapped in vellum or vax or whatever I am interested in, then I can deduce that every other deck of that type has the same type of packaging. That is simple enough.
Also, I have searched through Hochman's part 1 and 2 and both vellum and vax never shows up, and cellophane only shows up once in part 2. It seems that information about the inside packaging is fairly scarce.
Do you know of any other references, besides Hochman's, that would be good for determining single print runs, packaging details, etc.? I will also look at the material available at askalexander.org to see if anything interesting pops up, so you don't have to suggest that.
The biggest problem with getting information about the packaging of a vintage or antique deck is that often the deck itself is all that exists - the packaging is long gone. Often the only way to get information on it is to inquire with someone who has a deck with intact packaging.
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My 2015 price guide didn't download along with my Hochman's. I've got an open case with ConjArts. With that being said, I've got a value question.
I haven't seen Thistle Backs come up in a while. I've got the opportunity to pick up a deck with 52 only, no box, no jokers, and one non-facecard with 2 bent corners. The 51 others are in good shape. Should I wait for better or should I snatch these up under $20?
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My 2015 price guide didn't download along with my Hochman's. I've got an open case with ConjArts. With that being said, I've got a value question.
I haven't seen Thistle Backs come up in a while. I've got the opportunity to pick up a deck with 52 only, no box, no jokers, and one non-facecard with 2 bent corners. The 51 others are in good shape. Should I wait for better or should I snatch these up under $20?
I had a problem with my download - until I realized that there are carefully-written instructions in the email you received about your order telling you that you have to download everything beyond the first "book" using a slightly different method. So in my case, it was more of a "user error!" CARC was kind enough to let me know without making me feel like an idiot!
I'm thinking you could do worse, price-wise. While the prices on decks in general don't change a lot past a certain point, they don't generally go down - today's $20 deck could be tomorrow's trade fodder for $25 worth of cards from someone else...
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My 2015 price guide didn't download along with my Hochman's. I've got an open case with ConjArts. With that being said, I've got a value question.
I haven't seen Thistle Backs come up in a while. I've got the opportunity to pick up a deck with 52 only, no box, no jokers, and one non-facecard with 2 bent corners. The 51 others are in good shape. Should I wait for better or should I snatch these up under $20?
If you continue to have trouble with the download let me know and send me your order details and I can likely get it for you.
Re Thistle. Depends on how/what you are collecting. If trying to get an example of each back - go for this and eventually upgrade and sell this one. If you are collecting decks of various brands, etc. I would wait for one in much better condition, and complete .
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I came across this one at an antique shop in Dallas. I hadn't heard of them before. Google came up with a listing (that has already sold) on Etsy. An older version of that page might suggest they were asking $98.
I didn't buy them; this is the only picture I've got. Any backstory or value on these?
EDIT: Since the picture isn't great, here's all the text from the box.
Teuila Fortune Telling Cards
The U.S.Playing Card Co.
Cincinnati, U.S.A.
Copyright 1899 by Isobel Strong
Copyright 1923 by Isobel Field
International Copyright Reserved
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I came across this one at an antique shop in Dallas. I hadn't heard of them before. Google came up with a listing (that has already sold) on Etsy. An older version of that page might suggest they were asking $98.
I didn't buy them; this is the only picture I've got. Any backstory or value on these?
EDIT: Since the picture isn't great, here's all the text from the box.
Teuila Fortune Telling Cards
The U.S.Playing Card Co.
Cincinnati, U.S.A.
Copyright 1899 by Isobel Strong
Copyright 1923 by Isobel Field
International Copyright Reserved
Well, I can tell you that the copyright's expired!
The only other thing I can tell you is that there's been a lot of "Fortune Telling Decks" from USPC over the years, including the popular "Gypsy Witch" deck. They're kind of interesting. I've even seen a few "hand-modified" standard decks, where people either wrote on the cards or glued strips of typed pieces of paper to them with fortune-telling directions for what the card means, depending on whether it was drawn facing up or down. They're rather quaint, in terms of the fortunes told - like a little slice of folk history.
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This is a fortune telling game that is not a deck of playing cards as it doesn't use suit signs. It is interesting and has some value - I would suggest about $50 in mint condition.
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The information on these is pretty scarce. Google is very little help; a few old newspaper ads come up mentioning them from the 40s and I've only seen a newer deck shown on WOPC. I bought these on a whim without the opportunity to research. Do I have anything here? Since one of the 10¢ stamps is partially detached, I might break into that deck soon.
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The information on these is pretty scarce. Google is very little help; a few old newspaper ads come up mentioning them from the 40s and I've only seen a newer deck shown on WOPC. I bought these on a whim without the opportunity to research. Do I have anything here? Since one of the 10¢ stamps is partially detached, I might break into that deck soon.
Based on what I see here, I can say two things:
1) that "Liberty Spade" design on the tuck box is definitely USPC, and
2) that particular tax stamp was in use only from 1929-1940.
In all likelihood, you have a Depression-era deck. Never heard of the brand before, but my knowledge of vintage is more limited.
The brand name seems a little ironic, since technically, the back designs aren't really of a single color, and "monotone" by definition is not about color but about sound that is unvaried in key or pitch! Assuming they were single-color, like Bicycle Rider Backs (and nearly all "old school" Bicycle designs), "monochrome" would be the more accurate term.
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This would be a cheap brand that USPC made, likely for a major customer, e.g. Rexall, to sell at a lower price than regular USPC decks.
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Good morning,
Do you happen to know any non-internet based literature I can read on Lewis I. Cohen? He seems like a really interesting guy with a great story and tantalisingly little about him here online!
Thanks :)
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Good morning,
Do you happen to know any non-internet based literature I can read on Lewis I. Cohen? He seems like a really interesting guy with a great story and tantalisingly little about him here online!
Thanks :)
By coincidence, the next issue of Clear the Decks, the quarterly magazine of 52 Plus Joker, has a long article on L I Cohen. It will be in the mail in about a week and available on the website about the same time. If you are not already a member, click the link below to join and we'll make sure you are on the mailing list.
http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/Members/MyAccount/tabid/77/Default.aspx?returnurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.52plusjoker.org%2fdnn%2f52PlusJokerClub%2ftabid%2f36%2fDefault.aspx (http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/Members/MyAccount/tabid/77/Default.aspx?returnurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.52plusjoker.org%2fdnn%2f52PlusJokerClub%2ftabid%2f36%2fDefault.aspx)
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Good morning,
Do you happen to know any non-internet based literature I can read on Lewis I. Cohen? He seems like a really interesting guy with a great story and tantalisingly little about him here online!
Thanks :)
By coincidence, the next issue of Clear the Decks, the quarterly magazine of 52 Plus Joker, has a long article on L I Cohen. It will be in the mail in about a week and available on the website about the same time. If you are not already a member, click the link below to join and we'll make sure you are on the mailing list.
http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/Members/MyAccount/tabid/77/Default.aspx?returnurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.52plusjoker.org%2fdnn%2f52PlusJokerClub%2ftabid%2f36%2fDefault.aspx (http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/Members/MyAccount/tabid/77/Default.aspx?returnurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.52plusjoker.org%2fdnn%2f52PlusJokerClub%2ftabid%2f36%2fDefault.aspx)
Perfect! Thanks Tom!
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Hello, my first "real" post, and the deck that prompted me to join the forum. I am trying to understand how to date this particular deck, but the information I found researching today is a bit confusing. The box states N.Y. Consolidated and supposedly this dates the deck to pre-1930. But the tax stamp dates it between 1940-1965. The Consolidated-Dougherty cancel seems to date it to pre-1963. These sites were my main resources:
http://playingcards.wikidot.com/articles:uspcc-history
http://dananddave.com/learn/articles/dating-playing-cards-from-1-pack-tax-stamp/
So was this old NYCCC manufactured stock that was later sold by Consolidated-Dougherty? Or did the NYCCC brand actually exist later than 1930? I understand that NYCCC and C-D were subsidiaries of U.S. Playing Card that operated under their own brands. I know these questions could probably be answered by opening the pack but I'm not prepared to do that at this point since it is still fully sealed. Or does that really matter with this one?
I'm curious about value, it looks like eBay sales for seemingly equivalent decks run around $15. Does that seem right? I looked at Worthpoint and these were selling for around $100 back in 2011. That's a big drop, I'm curious what happend to the market on these since then?
Any help you can offer is appreciated!
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Hello, my first "real" post, and the deck that prompted me to join the forum. I am trying to understand how to date this particular deck, but the information I found researching today is a bit confusing. The box states N.Y. Consolidated and supposedly this dates the deck to pre-1930. But the tax stamp dates it between 1940-1965. The Consolidated-Dougherty cancel seems to date it to pre-1963. These sites were my main resources:
http://playingcards.wikidot.com/articles:uspcc-history
http://dananddave.com/learn/articles/dating-playing-cards-from-1-pack-tax-stamp/
So was this old NYCCC manufactured stock that was later sold by Consolidated-Dougherty? Or did the NYCCC brand actually exist later than 1930? I understand that NYCCC and C-D were subsidiaries of U.S. Playing Card that operated under their own brands. I know these questions could probably be answered by opening the pack but I'm not prepared to do that at this point since it is still fully sealed. Or does that really matter with this one?
I'm curious about value, it looks like eBay sales for seemingly equivalent decks run around $15. Does that seem right? I looked at Worthpoint and these were selling for around $100 back in 2011. That's a big drop, I'm curious what happend to the market on these since then?
Any help you can offer is appreciated!
The New York Consolidated Card Company was founded in 1871, purchased by USPC in 1894 and merged into the Consolidated-Dougherty brand in 1930, under which it operated until the brand was "dissolved" and absorbed into USPC in 1962. A. Dougherty is an even older firm, having been founded in 1848 and purchased by USPC in 1907.
Even to this day, you can buy packs of recently-made, new-stock Tally Ho playing cards that still state the manufacturer on the box face as "A. Dougherty," even though A. Dougherty as an independent corporate identity ceased to exist 85 years ago along with NYCCC. (The copyright information on the box's bottom panel, something USPC introduced with the move to Erlanger, Kentucky in 2009, will list USPC as the manufacturer and copyright holder. Technically the design is too old to be covered under copyright law, though it is still covered under trademark law, as long as USPC continues to keep the trademark registered.) So I would not be surprised in the least to discover a box of Bees with the NYCCC brand which was made after the 1930 merger of the two units into Consolidated-Dougherty.
The most accurate measure of the deck's age would be the tax stamp, which in this case would place it as being made somewhere between the first use of the wide "1 PACK" tax stamp in 1940 and the abolition of the stamp tax on cards in 1965. Someone more knowledgeable than I am might be able to narrow it further based on variations in the box design or the stamp's cancellation during that time period, but that's the best I can offer you as far as a date without the pack being opened.
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Hello, my first "real" post, and the deck that prompted me to join the forum. I am trying to understand how to date this particular deck, but the information I found researching today is a bit confusing. The box states N.Y. Consolidated and supposedly this dates the deck to pre-1930. But the tax stamp dates it between 1940-1965. The Consolidated-Dougherty cancel seems to date it to pre-1963. These sites were my main resources:
http://playingcards.wikidot.com/articles:uspcc-history
http://dananddave.com/learn/articles/dating-playing-cards-from-1-pack-tax-stamp/
So was this old NYCCC manufactured stock that was later sold by Consolidated-Dougherty? Or did the NYCCC brand actually exist later than 1930? I understand that NYCCC and C-D were subsidiaries of U.S. Playing Card that operated under their own brands. I know these questions could probably be answered by opening the pack but I'm not prepared to do that at this point since it is still fully sealed. Or does that really matter with this one?
I'm curious about value, it looks like eBay sales for seemingly equivalent decks run around $15. Does that seem right? I looked at Worthpoint and these were selling for around $100 back in 2011. That's a big drop, I'm curious what happend to the market on these since then?
Any help you can offer is appreciated!
The New York Consolidated Card Company was founded in 1871, purchased by USPC in 1894 and merged into the Consolidated-Dougherty brand in 1930, under which it operated until the brand was "dissolved" and absorbed into USPC in 1962. A. Dougherty is an even older firm, having been founded in 1848 and purchased by USPC in 1907.
Even to this day, you can buy packs of recently-made, new-stock Tally Ho playing cards that still state the manufacturer on the box face as "A. Dougherty," even though A. Dougherty as an independent corporate identity ceased to exist 85 years ago along with NYCCC. (The copyright information on the box's bottom panel, something USPC introduced with the move to Erlanger, Kentucky in 2009, will list USPC as the manufacturer and copyright holder. Technically the design is too old to be covered under copyright law, though it is still covered under trademark law, as long as USPC continues to keep the trademark registered.) So I would not be surprised in the least to discover a box of Bees with the NYCCC brand which was made after the 1930 merger of the two units into Consolidated-Dougherty.
The most accurate measure of the deck's age would be the tax stamp, which in this case would place it as being made somewhere between the first use of the wide "1 PACK" tax stamp in 1940 and the abolition of the stamp tax on cards in 1965. Someone more knowledgeable than I am might be able to narrow it further based on variations in the box design or the stamp's cancellation during that time period, but that's the best I can offer you as far as a date without the pack being opened.
Thanks a lot Don! Any opinion on value or whether opening the pack is a good or bad idea?
Tim
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Thanks a lot Don! Any opinion on value or whether opening the pack is a good or bad idea?
Tim
Wow - that's a big question! The answer is really an individual's choice. Some people like preserving their little pieces of history as intact, while others are eager to hold and use a piece of history, evoking thoughts of what life was like for the people for whom that specific deck would have been a contemporary item.
It goes without saying that opening it would reduce its value, but cash value isn't the only reason for owning something, is it? I've also heard of some collectors opening a tuck box "surgically" from the bottom, carefully opening the cellophane at the folds and separating the bottom box flaps, allowing access to the cards to view them while at the same time preserving the cellophane tear strip and tax stamp in their original condition. I'm not a fan of this, even if the box is carefully reglued and resealed closed to appear as it originally did, probably for much the same reasons why one can't become a virgin again after losing one's virginity. But then again, if the work was done well, how would I know the difference, right?
I'd consider opening it for much the same reasons why one might open a fine vintage wine or champagne - not for any old reason but for some kind of special occasion, like a poker game with some buddies you haven't seen in a long time or something to that effect.
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Thanks a lot Don! Any opinion on value or whether opening the pack is a good or bad idea?
Tim
Wow - that's a big question! The answer is really an individual's choice. Some people like preserving their little pieces of history as intact, while others are eager to hold and use a piece of history, evoking thoughts of what life was like for the people for whom that specific deck would have been a contemporary item.
It goes without saying that opening it would reduce its value, but cash value isn't the only reason for owning something, is it? I've also heard of some collectors opening a tuck box "surgically" from the bottom, carefully opening the cellophane at the folds and separating the bottom box flaps, allowing access to the cards to view them while at the same time preserving the cellophane tear strip and tax stamp in their original condition. I'm not a fan of this, even if the box is carefully reglued and resealed closed to appear as it originally did, probably for much the same reasons why one can't become a virgin again after losing one's virginity. But then again, if the work was done well, how would I know the difference, right?
I'd consider opening it for much the same reasons why one might open a fine vintage wine or champagne - not for any old reason but for some kind of special occasion, like a poker game with some buddies you haven't seen in a long time or something to that effect.
Truly an individual choice. I'm sort of in both camps, the purist in me knows you can only break a seal once, the curious cat part of me wants to open things and play with them. Thanks again for the helpful and thoughtful answers!
Tim
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I asked the seller on eBay to relist these after they went unsold the first time around. I've done all the Googling I can take over the last few days and have seen nothing. I have them in hand now.
The cards have a nice rattle to them, so they haven't had moisture or humidity damage, and they don't sound to be additionally wrapped inside the box. The top flap reads air-cushion finish.
I have no other info. Does anyone know anything about this deck? AoS? Joker? Back?
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I can tell you very little about this deck! I didn't see a mention of it in Hochman's, but that's not surprising considering the tax stamp and the style of the artwork. The stamp dates it between 1940-1965 while Hochman's ends around 1950 or so, and that art and typeface to me evokes late 1950s or early 1960s. Kinda preppy looking, actually.
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I can tell you very little about this deck! I didn't see a mention of it in Hochman's, but that's not surprising considering the tax stamp and the style of the artwork. The stamp dates it between 1940-1965 while Hochman's ends around 1950 or so, and that art and typeface to me evokes late 1950s or early 1960s. Kinda preppy looking, actually.
It is from 1950's or 1960's and likely a brand made by USPC for a store or other special customer.
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I can tell you very little about this deck! I didn't see a mention of it in Hochman's, but that's not surprising considering the tax stamp and the style of the artwork. The stamp dates it between 1940-1965 while Hochman's ends around 1950 or so, and that art and typeface to me evokes late 1950s or early 1960s. Kinda preppy looking, actually.
It is from 1950's or 1960's and likely a brand made by USPC for a store or other special customer.
So, my estimate was reasonably accurate! Nice.
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Here are my Rugbys in a blue box. They were 23 cents each or two for 45 cents at Hook's drugs, a longtime Indiana-based drug store chain.
My blue box contained the bridge deck you see here, complete with the extra card to stick out of the slot on one side of the box. That way you could see the design of the cards in the box! Slots were common in the 1930s for USPC and others to avoid custom printed or glued-card boxes for these inexpensive bridge decks.
You see the standard ace, joker and 1935 bridge/500 scoring table. The U date code puts these at 1935.
Happy to assist!
Chris Turner
52 Plus Joker member
aka Andrew.
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Good work Chris
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The extraordinary temptation to open my deck has now (mostly) subsided. Thank you for that!
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Hello! I was wondering if the back found on this de luxe deck:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PLAYING-CARDS-DE-LUXE-No-142-NEW-YORK-CONSOLIDATED-CARD-CO-U-S-A-/201422896154?hash=item2ee5bd7c1a
can be found on any other decks other than these?
Thanks!
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Hello! I was wondering if the back found on this de luxe deck:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PLAYING-CARDS-DE-LUXE-No-142-NEW-YORK-CONSOLIDATED-CARD-CO-U-S-A-/201422896154?hash=item2ee5bd7c1a
can be found on any other decks other than these?
Thanks!
As eBay images have a habit of vanishing after a certain number of months after the auction/sale ends, I thought it prudent to download the images and upload them here...
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Thanks for posting the downloads!
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Hello! I was wondering if the back found on this de luxe deck:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-PLAYING-CARDS-DE-LUXE-No-142-NEW-YORK-CONSOLIDATED-CARD-CO-U-S-A-/201422896154?hash=item2ee5bd7c1a
can be found on any other decks other than these?
Thanks!
I believe that back was also used for the Triton #42 brand
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Hey Mista T. you are correct sir!... i've had that back on a deck of Triton #42's... prefer the great animal backs that they had on them though...and the Indian chief too.. ;-)
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Hello Experts!
I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on an observation that I made on two seemingly identical decks of souvenir playing cards. The specific question is: Did USPCC change their cardstock/varnish process between 1901 and 1902?
I was comparing two decks of S28 Hawaiian Souvenir playing cards, both the early type with Type A black and white images. Deck A has a tax stamp of 8-8-01. Deck B has a tax stamp dated 6-X-1902 (couldn't discern the day). Deck A was noticably thicker cardstock and the cards had a much "slicker, slippery" feel against each other. I was wondering if the thicker deck was such due to usage/exposure, but I noticed that the slip cover case was also thicker for deck A. Also both decks are Near Mint+ having likely never seen a card game, only lightly handled.
Deck A - 1901
Thicker stock
Shinier/Slipperier
More Sepia-toned photos
Deck B - 1902
Thinner stock
Less slippery
More B&W-toned photos
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
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Hello Experts!
I was wondering if anyone could shed any light on an observation that I made on two seemingly identical decks of souvenir playing cards. The specific question is: Did USPCC change their cardstock/varnish process between 1901 and 1902?
I was comparing two decks of S28 Hawaiian Souvenir playing cards, both the early type with Type A black and white images. Deck A has a tax stamp of 8-8-01. Deck B has a tax stamp dated 6-X-1902 (couldn't discern the day). Deck A was noticably thicker cardstock and the cards had a much "slicker, slippery" feel against each other. I was wondering if the thicker deck was such due to usage/exposure, but I noticed that the slip cover case was also thicker for deck A. Also both decks are Near Mint+ having likely never seen a card game, only lightly handled.
Deck A - 1901
Thicker stock
Shinier/Slipperier
More Sepia-toned photos
Deck B - 1902
Thinner stock
Less slippery
More B&W-toned photos
Any insight would be appreciated, thanks!
Call this an educated guess. I think the answer would have to be that yes, they made some kind of change between the first and second decks. It's not necessarily that they changed their whole process, but that they changed what was being offered for that particular deck. Odds are, they were offering a variety of stocks, coatings and finishes - probably more than what's being offered now, that's for sure!
It's believed that a lot of the historic finish names, such as Linoid, Cambric, etc. were at one time completely different from each other, but these days, it's all just different names for "embossed," that being one of the two choices available, the other being "smooth." Stock-wise, it's known that USPC used to offer a variety of different stocks in various thicknesses and firmnesses - today, they offer exactly two, Bicycle and Bee Casino, and that's it. Adding insult to injury, they come in a range of thicknesses, you don't get to chose the precise thickness and the ranges actually overlap, so a thick Bicycle stock deck can be thicker than a thin Bee Casino stock deck. This information comes to me from someone who's done a lot of business with USPC in recent history, though not as much presently - he left his firm for another, but that original firm has largely switched to a different manufacturer anyway.
The present state of affairs isn't entirely USPC's fault - I'm told that around the same time the company opened the new plant in Erlanger, US regulations went into effect requiring higher post-consumer recycled content in paper stocks as well as the use of petrochemical-free inks and coatings. They now use vegetable-dye inks and starch-based varnishes.
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I would not be surprised if you found another 1901 style deck with the same stock and finish as the 1902. I suspect, like Don, that a number of finishes were available and were used somewhat interchangeably.
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Thanks guys, great info!!
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Thanks guys, great info!!
It could even be a situation not entirely dissimilar to what CARC offered, back when they were commissioning USPC to make "Erdnase" series Bee decks and Professional Bicycle decks for them. Most of the decks they offered were made available in two finishes - Cambric (in the case of Bicycles, "Air Cushion") and Ivory. The only exception I'm aware of was the "Expert at the Card Table" deck, and I'm not completely certain that was a CARC-commissioned project, though I think it was. It only came in a textured finished, which I don't think was named on the box.
This vintage deck of yours might have been offered in more than one stock, more than one finish, more than one level of quality. It was entirely common for USPC to offer varying levels of quality for some of their decks, with gilding often being used as a means to make a moderate-to-high quality deck cost even more at retail. It allowed them to capture the gamut of market segments, from well-to-do aristocrats playing a high-stakes game of cribbage all the way down to the kids collecting deposit bottles to save money for a deck to play Go Fish and every financial strata in-between. It was that kind of broad market coverage (combined with an aggressive pattern of mergers and acquisitions) that allowed them to so thoroughly dominate the US market, I believe, within a short time of the company opening its doors and selling its first deck.
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Please, have you already seen this lithograph trade card made by the N.Y Consolidated Card Company's? I found it on the web and apparently, it features politicians. The name of the persons shown are, left to right: James G. Blaine, Benjamin Harrison, Levi Morton, Allen G. Thurman, Grover Cleveland, unknown. Would somebody have a copy or more information about this trade card? Probably dates from 1888. Thanks in advance.
Crypto
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I have a question about the Tally Ho playing cards. I have some sealed decks that are barcoded and some that are not. It is my understanding that the non-perforated sticker seals were adopted in the mid-70s and the barcode in the early 80s. My non-barcoded decks have the non-perforated seal so my guesstimate is that these were made/sold in the time between 1976 and approx. 1982. Can anyone confirm this? Thank you, Craig
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That is a good estimate, Craig.
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Thank you very much Andrew, I appreciate the help. Take care, Craig
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Hi everybody!
I found recently a Dougherty pricelist dated 1869 and the decks numbered on this list are exactly the same as those of the L. I. Cohen pricelist in the Hochman Supplement & Price Guide p. 6. Do you know if there is an error concerning the manufacturer for one of the two list or if the decks or a part of the stock of Lewis Cohen were acquired by Andrew Dougherty at the time of his death?
Thank you,
Crypto
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Hi, all. I could use some help dating a Bulldog Squeezer Deck.
It has the USPCC seal. The AOS is a Squeezers ace and has Y 2629 on the bottom.
It has the pair of Tally Ho jokers.
Also, have Bulldog Squeezers been in constant production? Did it stop and start again? Fascinated by the history of this card design.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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OK, the USPC seal immediately says "1965 or later." The fact that it's a sticker means "mid-1980s or later." Combine that with the "Y" in the Ace of Spades code and your deck was printed in 1998 - it's about 17 years old, a few years shy of being considered vintage. (The accepted threshold here is a minimum of 20 years old for vintage.)
I'm pretty sure the Bulldog Squeezers were stopped in the early 2000s and I know they were reprinted in 2010 at the Erlanger factory. It's a similar pattern as occurred with the Angel Back Squeezers and USPC Steamboats (not counting any prints ordered by third parties like Dan and Dave, of course).
The reprint Bulldogs have the same exact Joker designs found in a modern Tally Ho deck, including the Guarantee Joker.
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Thanks, Don. Exactly the answer I was looking for.
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It's actually kind of interesting, when you think of the symbolism of the deck, that the jokers are Tally Ho while the Ace of Spades has bees in the design, symbolic of the Bee brand - many of the early Bee decks were also "co-branded" as Squeezers. Combine that with the imagery on the card back of "Squeezer" and "Trip" each tied to their homes/doghouses, representing the collusion between two companies, A. Doughtery and NY Consolidated, to divide a market between them - this is the kind of deck that would never have been made if this sort of thing happened today. It would have been tantamount to waving evidence of illegal corporate practices in the world's face and taunting about it! It was no more legal then than it is now, but apparently no one in the government decided to call them on it - and in the end, both companies, rather than being colluding competitors, ended up absorbed into a single near-monopoly...
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Can Anybody Tell What is The Years of this Aladdin Playing Card ?
The Box matches 1910 version
first picture is the face of the box , second picture is the bottom of the box and all the other side are same (which wrote 1001 Aladdin)
The aces was also 1910 because it is N
The Joker was also match the 1910 .
This is the part which confuse me.
The printing of this playing card is not from 1910
And it also come with Guarantee Joker .
Thank you everyone !
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The font on the ace of spades is way too modern for 1910. Also, the court cards are the modern USPC faces. I would put the N date code as possibly 1990-1991. That was also the time when the face cards often were printed with slightly faded colors, as your image may show. The blues fade into a purplish hue. Collectors, look at your early 90s USPC decks, and you'll see how the colors are not as rich as decks before or after.
One more clue. If the box is original to the deck, the zip code puts the deck after 1965. Lack of bar code is interesting, though.
Sometimes the various date code charts are not 100 percent correct. Occasionally one must make an educated guess based on other clues. Definitely not 1910. Font, combined with faded blue says early 90s.
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I am really appreciated your reply ! Yes , I know the code of the USPCC is not always right , it has a lot of exceptions !
The only thing is why the box is so much different with the deck . Pre-barcode box is before 1975 .
Besides that , if 1990-1991 is related to "N" but why the reference list of the USPCC didn't write it down ? Is it means that is only a less amount of decks were printed in 1990-1991 with N code ?
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I think the estimate is correct - if these are vintage, they're only barely so.
The only known, charted uses of the "N" in the date code are from 1910 and 2011 - but that assumes USPC is a stickler for following their own codes, which we know they aren't. Anyway, a deck from 2011 would also have the four-digit prefix indicating the week and last two digits of the year of manufacture as well as having an Erlanger, Kentucky address.
UPC (Universal Product Code) barcodes may have been around since the late '60s, but they didn't see wide use until the early '70s and didn't appear on USPC playing cards until the '80s or so. However, this being a non-domestic product for USPC, it could very well have been made without a bar code. Aladdins are marketed by USPC for exclusive sale in Singapore, although due to demand outside that country they do see distribution elsewhere. Even today, many decks made by USPC are sold without UPC barcodes, though mostly for third-party orders. Many believe they'll be gradually phased out and replaced with more data-rich, data-redundant formats like the QR code - you can damage a certain percentage of a QR code (based on size and density) and the code remains completely readable, whereas a damaged UPC barcode is unreadable if any of the center bars are completely gone or otherwise obscured.
Sticker seals as opposed to moisture-activated stamp seals didn't see use until sometime in the '80s. If you look closely at the glue residue where the seal fell off or was removed, you can see a clearly-defined edge along the sides - the stamp seals had perforated edges, thus their glue residue didn't leave such a straight line when the seal was removed or fell off. This deck was sealed with a sticker, so it really could not be older than circa 1985 or so - 1990 or 1991 sound like good educated guesses based on other evidence provided.
I'm merging this topic with the one on "Ask the Experts" - it's a better fit there.
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Thank Don for your information , I would like to have more information about this deck . Thank everyone for your effort !
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Hi I just acquired what I think is a very nice deck - for the US Army and clearly issued during wartime as there is a paper slip advertising war bonds. Pack is high quality with gold edging. Made by USPC Co. with a congress card (but not 'Congress' on the AS). The file scan shows the main details.
Does anyone have any info (?date) for example were these sent out to troops?
Thanks in advance
Paul
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Hi I just acquired what I think is a very nice deck - for the US Army and clearly issued during wartime as there is a paper slip advertising war bonds. Pack is high quality with gold edging. Made by USPC Co. with a congress card (but not 'Congress' on the AS). The file scan shows the main details.
Does anyone have any info (?date) for example were these sent out to troops?
Thanks in advance
Paul
The design is consistent with the 1940s and the war bonds ad card would certainly indicate a WW2-era deck. "E" in the Ace of Spades code would narrow that down to having been manufactured in 1943, right in the thick of the war. USPC was very busy at the time - manufacturing regular decks, spotter decks with ships and aircraft pictures, parachutes for the war effort and their "escape decks," designed for shipment in Red Cross packages to POWs in Europe - as you likely know, when the cards were moistened, the glue would dissolve and the two paper layers would reveal a segment of an escape map hidden inside. Lots of interesting secret shipments of escape-related supplies went out like this - I remember reading a story about a POW accidentally breaking a phonograph record from a Red Cross shipment to find that European paper currency had been hidden in the core of the acetate!
Obviously I can't say this with certainty, but it's very likely that this particular deck was never sent out to the troops. Decks sold to US servicemen during World War II were issued special stamps indicating that they were tax-free, whereas this deck has an IRS revenue stamp (a.k.a. tax stamp) with a USPC cancellation. It was probably sold domestically to civilians looking for a patriotic-looking pack of cards or perhaps manufactured for the US Army and intended for sale to civilians.
As I understand it, most of the intellectual property associated with the US Federal Government is in the public domain as regarding objects, places, things, etc. made with American tax dollars. For example, while specific government documents might be restricted, government-related intellectual property such as the White House, the American Flag, NASA, the US Constitution, the FBI, the Presidential Seal of Office, Air Force One, the Space Shuttle, Marine One, the statue depicting the flag planting at Iwo Jima, the Vietnam Veterans' Memorial, etc. would be considered public domain - as long as I didn't use them to imply any sort of official recognition or endorsement without permission or use them for committing some kind of fraud (such as suggesting the government gave me permission to use the "US Army" deck to raise money for war bonds), I could use photos or other images of these things and place them on objects I want to sell. My point is that any civilian could have ordered such a deck to be made for retail sale; they may or may not be something officially ordered for manufacture by the US Army or any branch of the government. I would also not be able to use images of specific individuals without permission - meaning faces of government employees, present and past, would be off-limits for reproduction and sale for privacy reasons unless taken in the context of news reporting or for personal use. For example, I can take a souvenir photo of the President having a cup of coffee at the local coffeehouse, I can sell the photo to a news service for use in their reporting on an event involving the President (such as the coffee house visit, some other thing he's in the news for, a biographical piece, etc.), but I can't make a T-shirt or a coffee mug with that image and go selling it - though if I made a small quantity for myself and my immediate family to use personally, perhaps even give away without charge a small number to friends and other people that I know, that would be permissible.
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I bought some old "as nas" playing cards in Iran in 2011. I would like to know how old they are and if they are worth anything. I have five identical cards, so the deck contains ten cards.
Thanks in advance.
Thomas
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I bought some old "as nas" playing cards in Iran in 2011. I would like to know how old they are and if they are worth anything. I have five identical cards, so the deck contains ten cards.
Thanks in advance.
Thomas
My knowledge of cards from outside the US is very limited. My knowledge of cards from Iran is practically non-existent, beyond, "I know they have cards."
Do the cards have any useful markings on them, in English or in Persian? Good, LARGE close-up photos would also help anyone with adequate knowledge.
The best I could tell you is that the cards are likely not more than 100-150 years old, and that's just a guess based on the clothing seen in the cards you showed in the pictures. They're very Western-looking, and even in the West weren't widespread until the mid-19th century or thereabouts.
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Thanks for the reply. Here's two more pictures.
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Thanks for the reply. Here's two more pictures.
It looks like it was stuck to a surface with tape at some point and the tape is still there.
You can submit MUCH higher resolution photos. These are still rather small - about 0.07 Mb, or 7% of the maximum file size you can upload.
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So I'm looking through some old Aviator decks, probably late 1940s, and I was struck by how the court cards and the pips in one pinochle deck were different from all the Aviator poker decks. Regular Aviator back. I don't remember seeing these on Aviators before. Anyone have any info on these courts and pips?
(Turns out these are Type C from Rod Starling's excellent article - Andrew Dougherty style courts). I checked some of my other regular Aviator decks and they were Type B (late 1940s) or Type F (early 1950s).
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So I'm looking through some old Aviator decks, probably late 1940s, and I was struck by how the court cards and the pips in one pinochle deck were different from all the Aviator poker decks. Regular Aviator back. I don't remember seeing these on Aviators before. Anyone have any info on these courts and pips?
I remember perhaps two or three years ago there was an AWESOME article in Clear the Decks that covered the topic of USPC standard faces and how they evolved over the years. If you don't have that issue, you should look for it in the Ask Alexander archives. It may have the answers you're looking for.
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I will check that out. Thanks, Don.
Not having much luck finding the proper issue. Anyone remember which issue it was?
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I will check that out. Thanks, Don.
Not having much luck finding the proper issue. Anyone remember which issue it was?
"A Royal Maze," by Rod Starling, Volume 27, Issue 2 (June 2013), pages 18-20.
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Finally returned to Ask Alexander to look up this issue, and they don't have it! Goes from Vol 27 No1 to Vol 27 no3. Oh well
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Finally returned to Ask Alexander to look up this issue, and they don't have it! Goes from Vol 27 No1 to Vol 27 no3. Oh well
Don't despair... :)) I'm going to post it in the Club Chat board of the Members section of the forum.
http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=9391.0
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Hi there, forgive me for being a n00b (in more ways than one), I'm unsure of where this thread should go, but this seemed like the most logical board - if it needs to be moved, please do so.
Anyway, I'm a really big M*A*S*Her, and as such, I know that cards played a big factor for the medical staff, whether it was poker, gin rummy, or even a game of bridge. I also know that they usually played with Bikes and Bees (and even Hoyle on one occasion) . . . however, there's a particular deck of cards that made rounds in at least two Season Six episodes ("The Merchant of Korea," where Charles is lassoed into a midnight poker game, and "Your Hit Parade," where Hawkeye invents the game Double Cranko by combining checkers, chess, and poker) that I have absolutely no idea of what brand they're supposed to be, and was wondering if anybody here could figure it out:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/snowthbo/vlcsnap-504348_zpssjpipsm4.png)
That's about the best screencap I can get. They actually look very, very similar to a cheap, off-brand deck I bought at Dollar General several years back. I considered the possibility that they may be Aviator, but I believe Aviator's back design has a more consentent coloring
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Turns out the court cards above are the Type C from Rod Starling's excellent article - Andrew Dougherty style courts. I checked some of my regular Aviator decks, and they were Type B (late 1940s) or Type F (early 1950s).
Ken Lodge has an article online that covers some of the same territory as Rod Starling's article and adds some information for other US card companies
http://www.wopc.co.uk/blogs/kenlodge/united-states-playing-card-co
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No idea ;) I tried some image and general searching just for fun and came across either your posting or where you got the question from. It's interesting enough to share here as well.
http://www.mash4077tv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=878 (http://www.mash4077tv.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=878)
As for getting your question answered you came to the right place, but perhaps the mods will move your post here instead http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=6081.0 (http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=6081.0)
My guess is your hunch is correct that's it's just some off brand and the world will never know, but we'll see...
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Heh, well thanks for sharing; even though I later mentioned it in the other thread, I would just like to restate, for the record, that I do, indeed, know how to play gin rummy - I didn't at the time, but I do now . . . though, admittedly, I still get a little mixed up about what beats what in poker (I understand Bicycle decks usually come with a card with that information on it, but none of the decks I've bought ever did).
And thanks, as I said, I'm a n00b, and wasn't entirely sure where to post this, so to be on the safe side, I posted it here since this board appears to be for general card discussion.
I think I should mention, upon a closer look at this mystery deck, it would appear that the cards are actually narrow, rather than standard poker sized - I'm not sure if that could be a clue to their identity, or not, but I figured I'd throw it out there.
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It's hard to make out any details in the screenshot, but considering there is low lighting, poor resolution/focus, etc it's possible these are the ones. Certainly a generic non-brand, but a style that would have been popular in the 70s/80s. https://www.etsy.com/listing/206360318/vintage-1970s-playing-cards-white-and (https://www.etsy.com/listing/206360318/vintage-1970s-playing-cards-white-and)
It feels like the white is too prominent on these cards compared to the screenshot, but hard to say given the angle and lighting. Certainly similar anyhow. It does appear the cards in the screenshot could be a 6 pointed start with elements between the points, much like this deck.
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/048/0/6175884/il_570xN.664251734_pjcl.jpg)
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Yes, I apologize for that, as I said, it was really the best screencap I could get in terms of actually seeing a majority of the back design (without their hands covering half the cards).
But looking at that example and comparing it with the screencap best I can, I think we could definitely rule this as a possibility - the designs do seem to come awfully close to looking alike. As you mentioned, I do believe the center of the back design was/is a six-point star with elements inbetween the points. Like I said, I'm definitely ruling this as a strong possibility.
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Yes, I apologize for that, as I said, it was really the best screencap I could get in terms of actually seeing a majority of the back design (without their hands covering half the cards).
But looking at that example and comparing it with the screencap best I can, I think we could definitely rule this as a possibility - the designs do seem to come awfully close to looking alike. As you mentioned, I do believe the center of the back design was/is a six-point star with elements inbetween the points. Like I said, I'm definitely ruling this as a strong possibility.
I would say the opposite, that the card you found on Etsy is NOT a match to the card used in the show. Note that the Etsy card has a six-pointed star that's DIFFERENT at each point, making it a one-way design. While it's difficult to make out any clear details on the M*A*S*H screen capture, one detail that is clear is that the six-pointed star on that card appears to be symmetrical with each half being mirrored, looked at when bisected horizontally.
It really just looks like a cheap, generic pack of playing cards commonly produced by manufacturers throughout China and India. While 99-cent stores like Dollar General weren't terribly popular at the time the show aired (I'm not even sure they were in business yet), decks like these did manage to find their way into mom-and-pop drugstores and novelty shops around the time that Season Six of the show was being filmed. The season aired in 1977/1978, so it was likely shot from the spring of '77 into that winter - in terms of story chronology, Frank Burns was committed to a psychiatric hospital at the end of the prior season and is replaced at the start of this season by Charles Emerson Winchester III, while Margaret Houlihan begins the season having returned from her honeymoon with husband Donald Penobscot.
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Like I said, I was considering it a possibility, not necessarily an exact match -- again, it may not be possible to find an exact match, but I have been curious in trying to solve the mystery, though it may not be solveable, lol.
In doing some further looking myself, I did happen to come across what may be another possibility:
(https://www.discountpokershop.com/images/products/playing_cards/royal_face_l.jpg)
According to the source I got this from, these are Royal brand decks . . . however, further Googling the Royal brand turns up multiple different back designs that are similar to one another, but all differ significantly in their center designs: one of which is a stylized spades, and another has little cards fanned out into the shape of a star.
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Like I said, I was considering it a possibility, not necessarily an exact match -- again, it may not be possible to find an exact match, but I have been curious in trying to solve the mystery, though it may not be solveable, lol.
In doing some further looking myself, I did happen to come across what may be another possibility:
(https://www.discountpokershop.com/images/products/playing_cards/royal_face_l.jpg)
According to the source I got this from, these are Royal brand decks . . . however, further Googling the Royal brand turns up multiple different back designs that are similar to one another, but all differ significantly in their center designs: one of which is a stylized spades, and another has little cards fanned out into the shape of a star.
It's not likely solvable. There's just too many cheap, generic backs with a similar design out there, and odds are the studio props department bought up a bunch of them cheap from some wholesaler - if any records were kept, they wouldn't likely have manufacturer and model details beyond something to the effect of "cards, red, 10 gross." It's not simply like looking for a needle in a haystack, but more like looking for a specific brand of needle made by a specific company in a stack of different, nearly identical needles of different brands from different companies... There will be countless near-matches, enough to drive a person insane trying to find the one true match, especially when comparing against a relatively low-resolution screen capture. Still images taken on set with analog film would actually be a better bet, but such images are uncommon enough, never mind finding one with a clear-enough look at the back of that deck of cards. (And this further assumes that only one deck was in use, or at the least one design of deck in multiple copies, and not a handful of similar-enough but non-identical decks from shot to shot and take to take...)
A deeper Google search of the Royal brand reveals that the company that makes them, Taizhou Baicaoyuan Cultural & Sports Manufacturing Co., Ltd. of Taizhou City, Jiangsu, PRC, has only been in business since 1996, making it impossible for Royal playing cards to be the ones used on set. In addition, they only manufacture plastic playing cards, which were not in common use at the time and probably not in use on the set of the TV show.
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Yeah, you're probably right; it was certainly a long shot, but I wanted to give it a try anyway.
Slightly off topic, but incidentally, I happened to be in Dollar General today, so I checked out their cards, and they just happened to have that particular off-brand I mentioned in my initial post (since I bought that deck years ago, DG seemed to only carry those Ace Authentic decks) . . . they're so off-brand that they don't even have a brand on the box at all, they're just simply called "Classic Playing Cards" on the front, while the back simply gives you partial views of both the front and back designs.
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Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China. DG has contracted with Cartamundi to produce the Classics a couple of times over the years. The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.
The Classics are very similar, if not the same, as the Rite Aid store brand deck that sells for well more than a dollar in my area.
The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.
--Andrew
Chris Turner
52 Plus Joker member
Jeffersonville, Ind.
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Yeah, you're probably right; it was certainly a long shot, but I wanted to give it a try anyway.
Slightly off topic, but incidentally, I happened to be in Dollar General today, so I checked out their cards, and they just happened to have that particular off-brand I mentioned in my initial post (since I bought that deck years ago, DG seemed to only carry those Ace Authentic decks) . . . they're so off-brand that they don't even have a brand on the box at all, they're just simply called "Classic Playing Cards" on the front, while the back simply gives you partial views of both the front and back designs.
Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China. DG has contracted with Cartamundi to produce the Classics a couple of times over the years. The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.
The Classics are very similar, if not the same, as the Rite Aid store brand deck that sells for well more than a dollar in my area.
The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.
--Andrew
Chris Turner
52 Plus Joker member
Jeffersonville, Ind.
Classic is a Cartamundi brand, and one of their cheaper models to boot. In fact, it's rare that I ever find a Cartamundi deck worth playing with - they're mostly varying degrees of bad with rare exception. Cartamundi has the contract for Rite Aid's store-branded decks - I purchased some to check out the face designs and they were so awful in quality I returned the unopened decks for a refund. I wouldn't use them to line a hamster cage. I have some Ace decks in plastic - the matte-finish ones are decent, the gloss-finish ones stick together and are nearly useless. I also have their old Magic Castle decks which were based on designs originally printed by another company (I know USPC was the printer for a while); the coating on the cards starts to stick together after only light usage, rendering the deck worthless for playing or collecting but great for starting fires. They have the license as well for decks based on the James Bond and Star Wars movies, much to my chagrin, because I'm fond of both franchises and their decks, from what I've seen of them, are terrible - they even go the extra mile of terrible and include typographical errors in some designs.
My "favorite" are the plastic 3-D lenticular Star Wars cards - the plastic is floppy almost to the point of unshufflable and the designs, faces and backs, are painted on the back of a layer of plastic. Imagine an open-faced sandwich - there's a layer of bread (the lenticular plastic) as the base, there's the meat (the face design, painted on the plastic, facing toward the plastic) and there's the condiments, cheese, etc. (the back design, painted on the back of the face design's paint, facing away from the plastic). The final layer isn't coated - a casual, accidental scratch to the back paint layer can actually penetrate all the way to the face paint layer, in much the same way that scratching the "label" side of a CD or a DVD deeply enough can penetrate to the foil layer on which the disc's data is etched. This means that after just a short while of playing with them with anything less than a "kid gloves" degree of care, the cards are left effectively ruined. I wouldn't even consider them safe for children because of the ease with which the paint can come off and be ingested.
I would love to see Cartamundi produce genuine high-quality playing cards the likes of which would leave USPC and others quaking in fear for their market share. But it has yet to happen and seems only less likely as time goes on. Their sole edge in the marketplace appears to be the ability to make cards very cheaply - and it's rare that "cheap" is ever equated with "good." A local pharmacy chain (Duane Reade, now a Walgreens subsidiary) started charging US$5.79 for a single pack of Bicycle Standards and about a buck per pack less for Play-Rights (the generic-looking, poorly thought-out replacement for the venerable, now-retired Studs brand), so apparently there will be a place for Cartamundi's cheaply-made, cheaply-sold cards for years to come (though ironically, the same chain is charging under $11 a pack for Bicycle Prestige plastic decks, which is on par with online pricing and lower than what USPC charges online from their own store)...
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Hi :)
I've got a couple of decks I would love to know the dates of, as well as an estimated value (just for myself).
Since I already opened a new topic including pictures, I'm just going to give you the link to it:
http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=9414.0
Any help would be very appreciated :)
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Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China.
I didn't know the brand, but yes, made in China, and it definitely shows.
The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.
I don't believe I've ever seen Mavericks at any of our local DGs, however, they do seem to be the prefered deck brand for Big Lots here; despite being a more known brand, I never usually hear much positive things about Maverick . . . I guess that's why Big Lots has them, lol. I actually have recently noticed that each individual grocery store chain seems to carry a different brand, in additional to also stocking Bicycle (which is almost always found in the check-out lines). For example, in addition to Maverick at Big Lots, some of the grocery store chains in my town also stock Hoyle at Kroger (in a double pack like Walmart does with Bicycle), Bee at Food City (I bought a red and blue deck there), and Eagle at Ingles. Food City and Ingles also carry different decks of Bikes, such as Pinochle decks. As I said, they're usually found at check-out, but some cases, they'll have their own end-cap, usually at the end of whatever aisle has beer, soda, and chips.
The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.
Here's some quick scans I did to share:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/snowthbo/classic1_zpswoffsxvz.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/snowthbo/classic2_zpsymtjaenh.jpg)
Like Don said, the face cards are really bad - like low-quality digital print-outs or something: the outlines sort of bleed into each other, and the color quality is like trying to compare an off-brand box of crayons to Crayola. And that Ace of Spades isn't much to sneeze at either; I like a nice-looking Ace of Spades (Bee is probably one of my favorites), but this isn't one of them. Like I said, I got this deck at DG several, several years ago: it was the first deck I ever bought for myself, mainly because I wanted to get a deck of playing cards for a party, so I just grabbed the cheap deck at DG. I forget why I ended up buying the two decks of Bikes a year later, but when I did, I "woke up" and realized the difference in quality between a paper deck that was printed, coated, and finished here in the U.S. of A. and a plastic deck that was printed in China.
I will say this about that plastic deck: it is durable. I accidentally spilled a bottle of water on them once, and aside from the plastic stock warping and swelling slightly (it's a really fat deck now), the cards themselves weren't really damaged at all . . . unfortunately, when some of my Bikes happened to rest on a wet ring on the desk, that was it, I had to replace the deck, which is why I try to take good care of my Bikes and Bees, lol. I know a lot of people prefer plastic decks for that very reason, but just for my personal preference in terms of feel and handling, I do like a nice, coated, finished paper deck. Heck, I can still remember the smell of that Cartamundi deck when I first opened it. . . . not pleasant.
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Look closer. Those Classic playing cards are Cartamundi decks, made in China.
I didn't know the brand, but yes, made in China, and it definitely shows.
The Classics appear to be replacing Mavericks as the dollar deck this year.
I don't believe I've ever seen Mavericks at any of our local DGs, however, they do seem to be the prefered deck brand for Big Lots here; despite being a more known brand, I never usually hear much positive things about Maverick . . . I guess that's why Big Lots has them, lol. I actually have recently noticed that each individual grocery store chain seems to carry a different brand, in additional to also stocking Bicycle (which is almost always found in the check-out lines). For example, in addition to Maverick at Big Lots, some of the grocery store chains in my town also stock Hoyle at Kroger (in a double pack like Walmart does with Bicycle), Bee at Food City (I bought a red and blue deck there), and Eagle at Ingles. Food City and Ingles also carry different decks of Bikes, such as Pinochle decks. As I said, they're usually found at check-out, but some cases, they'll have their own end-cap, usually at the end of whatever aisle has beer, soda, and chips.
The center "button" on the back design has changed slightly on various editions of this desk. Sorry, my decks aren't readily accessible for pictures right now.
Here's some quick scans I did to share:
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/snowthbo/classic1_zpswoffsxvz.jpg)
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k290/snowthbo/classic2_zpsymtjaenh.jpg)
Like Don said, the face cards are really bad - like low-quality digital print-outs or something: the outlines sort of bleed into each other, and the color quality is like trying to compare an off-brand box of crayons to Crayola. And that Ace of Spades isn't much to sneeze at either; I like a nice-looking Ace of Spades (Bee is probably one of my favorites), but this isn't one of them. Like I said, I got this deck at DG several, several years ago: it was the first deck I ever bought for myself, mainly because I wanted to get a deck of playing cards for a party, so I just grabbed the cheap deck at DG. I forget why I ended up buying the two decks of Bikes a year later, but when I did, I "woke up" and realized the difference in quality between a paper deck that was printed, coated, and finished here in the U.S. of A. and a plastic deck that was printed in China.
I will say this about that plastic deck: it is durable. I accidentally spilled a bottle of water on them once, and aside from the plastic stock warping and swelling slightly (it's a really fat deck now), the cards themselves weren't really damaged at all . . . unfortunately, when some of my Bikes happened to rest on a wet ring on the desk, that was it, I had to replace the deck, which is why I try to take good care of my Bikes and Bees, lol. I know a lot of people prefer plastic decks for that very reason, but just for my personal preference in terms of feel and handling, I do like a nice, coated, finished paper deck. Heck, I can still remember the smell of that Cartamundi deck when I first opened it. . . . not pleasant.
When I commented on the poor quality of the Cartamundi decks I've seen, I wasn't even commenting on the print quality - just the quality of the stock and its coating. Really low-grade stuff, for the most part.
When you say "plastic deck," are you referring to a deck that's made of 100% plastic or a deck that's plastic coated? There's a world of difference between the two.
Mavericks are sort of a house brand with Family Dollar stores. Previously, Maverick was an unheard-of brand in the Northeast, but as Family Dollar has been making its way into the region (at least in New York State), they've taken their brands with them. They have special versions of Maverick, Bicycle Standard and Bicycle Pink Ribbon (current edition) sold only in their stores that have a slightly shorter face design with a wide margin along the top and a price printed on the box in a circle in the left end of the margin - $1 for Mavericks, $3 for the two Bicycle designs. They're not easy to find, though, at least not the Bicycles - because the Bicycles are so cheap compared to the normal going rate, they often run out long before a new shipment arrives.
If we continue this line of discussion, we should move it into the Playing Card Plethora board - we've stopped talking about vintage decks a while ago now!
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I'm sorry about that. I think I can safely lay to rest my previous inquiry.
But to answer your question about plastic decks, I'm pretty sure the former, because I believe the box said 100% plastic . . . I don't have the box anymore (again, it was years ago when I bought the deck), and I didn't even look to see if it said that on the boxes I looked at the other day to check for a brand name, but I seem to recall the box saying 100% plastic. Not sure if I've ever handled a plastic coated deck.
Okay, carry on with the thread, sorry for driving it off topic.
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I'm sorry about that. I think I can safely lay to rest my previous inquiry.
But to answer your question about plastic decks, I'm pretty sure the former, because I believe the box said 100% plastic . . . I don't have the box anymore (again, it was years ago when I bought the deck), and I didn't even look to see if it said that on the boxes I looked at the other day to check for a brand name, but I seem to recall the box saying 100% plastic. Not sure if I've ever handled a plastic coated deck.
Okay, carry on with the thread, sorry for driving it off topic.
If you've handled a modern deck manufactured in the last half-century or so, you've handled plastic-coated cards! Every deck USPC produces - even the cheap ones they still have made for them by third-party printers in China (Mavericks) and the high-grade ones made for them by Fournier in Spain - are plastic-coated. The laminate they use on the surface of the paper for improved durability is a type of plastic. The term "plastic" covers a HUGE range of chemicals, including the full range of pasteboard paper coatings, from the best to the worst.
When I was a kid (and probably some years before that), cheap, poorly-made decks were often advertised on the box as "Plastic-Coated" in order to differentiate them from the even-cheaper uncoated decks (the kind that fall apart if you breathe on them or stare at them too hard) - the manufacturers were trying to equate their product with something produced under the more expensive brand names. But cheaply-made decks are still cheaply-made decks no matter how you slice it, and in the end, rather than "Plastic-Coated" elevating the public view of the product, the product deprecated the public view of the term "Plastic-Coated," making people think that it was the hallmark of a low-quality deck rather than a common feature of most decks, especially the best-made ones.
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I might have found the deck in question, the one from that M*A*S*H episode - and it might be a USPC-made deck.
This is a bridge-sized deck called "Pastime" and it has a back similar to the Aviator Bridge decks before they went out of print. The center star image, which I originally thought was six-pointed in the scene, is actually eight-pointed, like these cards. The bulk of the background image is a similar repeating pattern, and the edge of the image near the borders has a very similar "radiating outward" appearance to the design on this card back.
I spotted this deck in an active auction on eBay Canada moments ago.
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That does look very similar as well, and you're right, I also see the similarities in the Aviator cards (slightly off-topic, but I was watching an episode of THE ODD COUPLE the other night, and while Oscar and his poker buddies ordinarily played with Bees, they were playing with Aviators this time around).
And when I was looking on Google Images to see if I could find the mystery deck featured in that I LOVE LUCY episode I mentioned in another thread, I think I may have found another possibility:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xVNVcWKAtoo/UBBEPMfOjcI/AAAAAAAACdQ/-zTiXywWepc/s1600/card3+f.jpgp)
According to the source I got it from, this is a Bridge Club deck (no. 9494), and clearly made in Hong Kong, as printed on the Joker. While the center design is clearly a stylized circle rather than a star, looking at it out of focus with your eyes blurred seems to make it look more a star pattern.
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It's certainly a contender - but the fact remains that without clearer images of the actual deck in use, we might as well be looking for a specific drop of water floating somewhere in the ocean...
I should qualify my earlier statement about plastic-coated decks. I'm told that as of 2009, the US government passed regulations that required playing card manufacturers to use more environmentally-friendly materials for making cards. Papers now have a significant percentage of post-consumer recycled content, inks are made from vegetable-based dyes and coatings for the paper are starch-based instead of plastic-based.
This applies, as far as I know, only to decks made within the United States, so the biggest company affected would be USPC, but as far as foreign-made decks sold here or elsewhere, it would depend on the laws of whatever land they were made/sold in. Europeans might have similar regulations in place, but it's unlikely any Asia countries do, and China is likely the biggest foreign supplier of playing cards to the US. By extension, because USPC supplies a huge amount of cards to the Canadian market, this would mean that those cards are also more eco-friendly and made with the same materials. They also sell in other countries, but aside from the Maverick brand, all decks sold under the USPC brand name are made in the US by the same processes and using the same materials. Mavericks are subcontracted out to at least one Chinese company and are still plastic-coated. And of course, Fournier decks would be covered under Spanish/EU laws, so they might still be plastic-coated, assuming they were in the first place - again, I don't know what restrictions apply there.
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I have heard some people talk about how USPC cards have taken a dive in overall quality in the recent years - I'm not entirely sure if that has something to do with it or not, mainly because I honestly can't tell a difference: the first time I bought a pair of Bikes was back in 2009 (but who knows how long they had been on the shelf prior to my purchase) when their factory was still in Ohio; I bought a pair of replacements last year, after they moved to Kentucky. As I said, I know people say they can tell a difference and the cards aren't as good as they used to be, but again, I really see and feel no difference. But then again, I'm not an expert on these things, nor have I been handling cards for a long time. Really, my only quibble with Bikes is how lop-sided their back designs are printed, leaving the white borders thin on one corner, but thick on the opposite corner. I hear that's the only good thing about certain Ace decks, in that their borders are perfectly printed and thin.
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I have heard some people talk about how USPC cards have taken a dive in overall quality in the recent years - I'm not entirely sure if that has something to do with it or not, mainly because I honestly can't tell a difference: the first time I bought a pair of Bikes was back in 2009 (but who knows how long they had been on the shelf prior to my purchase) when their factory was still in Ohio; I bought a pair of replacements last year, after they moved to Kentucky. As I said, I know people say they can tell a difference and the cards aren't as good as they used to be, but again, I really see and feel no difference. But then again, I'm not an expert on these things, nor have I been handling cards for a long time. Really, my only quibble with Bikes is how lop-sided their back designs are printed, leaving the white borders thin on one corner, but thick on the opposite corner. I hear that's the only good thing about certain Ace decks, in that their borders are perfectly printed and thin.
Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made. Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger. Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.
Regardless, that has NOTHING to do with the poor quality of the die cutting. I've noticed it on many decks made since the move. Nearly every deck I run into recently, be it a short-run custom or a mass-produced deck, has centering issues. Faces are one thing, but backs? I can open almost any new pack of cards and use it almost like a stripper deck because of the off-center cutting.
I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks. Many people have noticed it.
For custom decks, "Magic Finish" is the great equalizer. It's not really a finish, but a coating placed on the paper to give it better glide characteristics. I have no idea what it's made from, but I do know it's the default for all custom deck projects - a designer has to make a special request to NOT have it applied.
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Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made. Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger. Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.
Even though I don't have those 2009 decks anymore, I do still have the guarantee joker, and yes, it has the Ohio address on it. My 2015 (or, 2015 purchased, the boxes are dated 2013) decks have the Kentucky address on the guarantee.
I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks. Many people have noticed it.
That much I can tell, yes. As I mentioned previously, in comparison to my Bees, the stock does have a slightly thinner and flimsier feel - but likewise, the Bikes' air-cushion finish has a slightly smoother feel to the touch compared to the slightly coarser cambric finish on the Bees.
But that's about as much I can tell.
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Your 2009 deck might not have been Ohio-made. Tuck boxes marked with Ohio that have a BLACK deck seal were, in most cases, filled with cards made in Erlanger. Check the guarantee joker's return address to be certain.
Even though I don't have those 2009 decks anymore, I do still have the guarantee joker, and yes, it has the Ohio address on it. My 2015 (or, 2015 purchased, the boxes are dated 2013) decks have the Kentucky address on the guarantee.
I'm pretty sure they've switch to using a slightly thinner stock for Bicycle decks. Many people have noticed it.
That much I can tell, yes. As I mentioned previously, in comparison to my Bees, the stock does have a slightly thinner and flimsier feel - but likewise, the Bikes' air-cushion finish has a slightly smoother feel to the touch compared to the slightly coarser cambric finish on the Bees.
But that's about as much I can tell.
Bee stock has always been thicker than Bicycle stock, to my knowledge, and is still true today. I was comparing newer Bicycle decks to older Bicycle decks - newer ones are a little thinner.
Texture-wise, aside from the amount of pressure used to crush the paper, resulting in thinner or thicker stock, there's no difference in the finishes between the two stocks they now offer on their basic decks. Cambric, Air Cushion, Linoid, Linen - all the same. USPC calls them "embossed" when you're a designer ordering a new deck. So you can get thin (Bicycle) or thick (Bee) and you can get embossed (name-the-dimpled-finish-of-your-choice) or smooth (name-the-undimpled-finish-of-your-choice, such as Smooth, Ivory, etc.). The names are carried over out of tradition and for marketing purposes - at one time in history they might have been different, but today, they aren't.
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Hello:
This is a complete set of the Israel Stamp Game #7 from 1957.
Probably purchased by a relative on a trip to Israel in the late 50s.
I haven't been able to find any information about it.
Is it rare? Something a museum or serious collector would like?
Thanks,
Rena
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I honestly couldn't put a value on something like that. It would depend on how rare the deck is today and how popular a subject Israeli stamps are. It's not something we generally put a value on here, because we mostly deal with International Standard decks - 52 cards, four suits, 13 ranks, perhaps a few extra jokers or ad cards.
It would be better to find a forum that specializes in either 1) Israeli memorabilia, 2) games in general or custom card games in particular, or 3) ephemera. The last is a very broad category of collectible - it's basically items that were never meant to last long after they were made and used, things that were intended to be consumed and disposed of but by some twist of fate have managed to survive far longer than expected. Anything like newspapers, magazines, books, comics, collectible cards, many types of toys, show programs, ticket stubs, bottle caps, etc. and many, many more. Ephemera, in order to be collectible, usually has to have some kind of appeal to the collector, often on a personal level - a collector of board games may have played them a lot when he was a kid, a collector of Christmas ornaments may be exceptionally fond of that holiday, etc. Either that, or it's an item that has a clear monetary value and a collector buys it speculatively, as a sort of investment, hoping it will rise in value swiftly enough to make it worth his initial outlay for it when he sells it. As far as investments go, however, it's not one I'd be banking my retirement on!
Check with ephemera dealers in Israel - they're likely to have a better idea of the rarity and value in today's market. I'm inclined to think there's some value to it if for no other reason than that it's survived intact for nearly 60 years. But if it was exceptionally common at the time and many people kept them over the years, this is something that would drive market value down for an item like this. Fortunately for you, items in the ephemera category rarely last this long in large numbers!
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whats the general USPC seal change timeline look like? IE: tax stamps,uspc seals with the tax stamp style serrations, offset blue seals, centered blue seals,etc...and are red seals a part of that general deck timeline, or is that more of a casino deck thing(ive only seen them on bee casino decks before)?
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whats the general USPC seal change timeline look like? IE: tax stamps,uspc seals with the tax stamp style serrations, offset blue seals, centered blue seals,etc...and are red seals a part of that general deck timeline, or is that more of a casino deck thing(ive only seen them on bee casino decks before)?
Check out the Introduction to the Hobby of Playing Card Collecting by Lee Asher...it's a pretty awesome reference and gives a general answer to your question. ;)
http://www.52plusjoker.org/mailings/card-collecting-guide-asher.pdf
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oh wow thanks cardfool, thats very helpful! guess i know what to look out for now! do you know when the offset vs centered start? ive seen them as late as the late 90s, but im not exactly sure when
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oh wow thanks cardfool, thats very helpful! guess i know what to look out for now! do you know when the offset vs centered start? ive seen them as late as the late 90s, but im not exactly sure when
I remember as a kid in the 1970s seeing centered seals on USPC decks. I'm thinking somewhere in the first ten years after the revocation of the tax on playing cards, they started applying the seals on the center of the lid instead of off to the side; I have no idea why. Perforated, moisture-activated adhesive stamps were the standard from 1965 into the 1980s, eventually being replaced by stickers.
Red and blue seals were in common use until the factory relocation in 2009, at which point black seals became standard. But this isn't a hard and fast rule - special releases and custom decks can have any kind or color of seals on them. But if you're talking about just the "general issue" stuff you'd find in the local corner store, pharmacy, etc., that's pretty much what you'll find.
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At International Resource Seekers we are personal and business purchasing agents. We specialize in finding and acquiring, for our clients, items that they are unable to find, or can find, but don't want to pay the high price being asked. If the item we find is not exactly what they want, they are not obligated to take it, and have no expense. We will, if we can, return the item to our source. In the rare instance when we cannot return it, We sell it on which ever venue seems to be the best.
I have a deck of Kem Cards that I've had so long, that I have no clue as to where they came from. I've been trying to find out what they are and how old they are.. Googling one site after another with no success led me to you.
I'm not sure of the proper procedure to post the a description & picture. They are in a brown Kem box. Both decks are still factory sealed. Can't get get to the Ace of Spades to see date code. Please advise.
Thanks, Horsetrader 1010
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At International Resource Seekers we are personal and business purchasing agents. We specialize in finding and acquiring, for our clients, items that they are unable to find, or can find, but don't want to pay the high price being asked. If the item we find is not exactly what they want, they are not obligated to take it, and have no expense. We will, if we can, return the item to our source. In the rare instance when we cannot return it, We sell it on which ever venue seems to be the best.
I have a deck of Kem Cards that I've had so long, that I have no clue as to where they came from. I've been trying to find out what they are and how old they are.. Googling one site after another with no success led me to you.
I'm not sure of the proper procedure to post the a description & picture. They are in a brown Kem box. Both decks are still factory sealed. Can't get get to the Ace of Spades to see date code. Please advise.
Thanks, Horsetrader 1010
I've moved your post into a more appropriate topic.
As you've had them for "a long time," they're probably "original Kem," manufactured in New York and predating the purchase of the company by the United States Playing Card Company (USPC) in 2004.
For those Kem decks, you'll notice they have a three- or four-digit number on the Ace of Spades, just below the left lobe of the spade in the body artwork. The last two digits will be the year of manufacture. The remaining digits will be the month of manufacture. But, as you've stated, you don't have access to the Aces of Spades, so I'm assuming your deck is still in "as issued" condition, wrapped in the packaging - what some collectors refer to as "new old stock;" old merchandise in new condition.
Beyond using that code, we'd need to see images - photos of the packaging, the decks themselves, whatever you've got. The packaging itself might give some clues, as there were different boxes used over the years, starting with the lovely vertically-oriented Bakelite boxes in the earlier years and ending with the flat, wide plastic boxes I'm familiar with from when I started playing with Kem cards.
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Like Don said, please post some pictures. I bet we can narrow it down to within a few years, but gotta have the pics.
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Got some new cards in, and I am hoping someone can help me identify the manufacturer and approximate date. Here's a pic of the Ace of Spades, the back and the spade courts. Thanks.
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Update: I found nearly identical court cards on the World Web Playing Card Museum listing for Extra Congress c.1881-1895 - see second picture and -http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks03/d01878/d01878.htm so these could be old USPC courts. But I have no idea on the Ace of Spades. Did someone copy USPC? Cards for a foreign market? Foreign cards? Help me out.
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Here's another deck.
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Many thanks to Ken Lodge and Simon Wintle for their help in indentifying these decks. Turns out the American Card Company "borrowed" some of the early Russell & Morgan courts. American Playing Card Company, c 1900-1910. Hochman's encyclopedia ( L72 ) has a picture of a joker with the same design as the ace of spades shown.
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Hi Everyone,
First time poster here and beginning collector, I started a topic on this, but then saw this thread and thought I'd post here as well.
I was browsing eBay this past week, and stumbled upon a deck that I'd like to learn more about. I've done a lot of my own research, but I wanted to see if there were any other analytical minds out there that could assist.
The eBay listing sold to me for $6.51, and was titled "Antique The Consolidated card co. New York Deluxe playing cards no.142". However, I quickly realized that what was actually included in the box is not the no.142 De Luxe cards. Upon further research, it looks like I may have *accidentally* purchased a rare deck that was manufactured in 1891 - "Midwinter Fair and Pacific Coast Playing Cards".
I've found the following link based on the back-design of the cards:
http://blogs.lib.berkeley.edu/bancsurvey.php/title_39
...These include a nifty deck of illustrated playing cards from the San Francisco Mid-Winter Exposition, 1884. This particular deck of "Midwinter Fair and Pacific Coast Playing Cards" was manufactured by The Winters Art Litho Co., San Francisco/Chicago in 1891; they have an enamel finish. In addition to illustrations of the Mid-Winter Expo, the cards depict scenes from the Pacific Coast, from Washington State to Los Angeles. Bay Area scenes include San Francisco's Chinatown, Golden Gate Park and Alcatraz.
And also found this 52+Joker link, but I don't really know what I'm looking at. It seems to be an auction flier, with my deck listed at "Minimum 150" - (Lot 63) http://www.52plusjoker.org/dnn/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=nKvZTxmxwnU%3D&tabid=76&mid=413
However, the cards I purchased did not come with the original box, instead with this De Luxe box. And the condition is actually pretty bad (I'll post my pictures later, but for now, here are the listing pictures).
Any thoughts? I don't really know what I'm looking or asking for here, maybe its just to start a conversation :) In any case, $6.51 sounds like a steal for cards manufactured in 1891, even in this condition.
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Hello card experts, I'm not a card collector, nor do I aspire to be one. I simply have a bit of vintage items, one of them being this vintage complete deck of Smith's pinup playing cards, made in Copenhagen. I've kept it simply because the cards themselves are in such good condition and it's always been a cool item to have around. Recently I've been considering selling them, but the best way and the proper pricing has been hard to pin down because there isn't a lot on this subject online. I've seen single cards being sold on eBay, but this is a full set of cards with no bends or folds, and although the box is open and shows a little wear, there are no bends or folds on the box either.
Again, I'm not a card collector, I am a guitar player and fisherman, (I belong to forums on both those subjects) but I'm only trying to find the best way to move this item and to find a good selling price. Any suggestions and tips would be greatly appreciated, thanks!!
(https://s16.postimg.org/ebos0d40l/IMG_20160830_175320095.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/78gwkqykx/) (https://postimage.org/)
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Hello card experts, I'm not a card collector, nor do I aspire to be one. I simply have a bit of vintage items, one of them being this vintage complete deck of Smith's pinup playing cards, made in Copenhagen. I've kept it simply because the cards themselves are in such good condition and it's always been a cool item to have around. Recently I've been considering selling them, but the best way and the proper pricing has been hard to pin down because there isn't a lot on this subject online. I've seen single cards being sold on eBay, but this is a full set of cards with no bends or folds, and although the box is open and shows a little wear, there are no bends or folds on the box either.
Again, I'm not a card collector, I am a guitar player and fisherman, (I belong to forums on both those subjects) but I'm only trying to find the best way to move this item and to find a good selling price. Any suggestions and tips would be greatly appreciated, thanks!!
(https://s16.postimg.org/ebos0d40l/IMG_20160830_175320095.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/78gwkqykx/)
(https://postimage.org/)
I have three possibilities for you.
1) eBay would be the easiest and simplest way to go - biggest venue on Earth for selling collectibles. Use a guide such as the Hochman's Encyclopedia/Price Guide to determine a good selling price and put together an offering from there.
2) Members of 52 Plus Joker can post items for sale immediately on our STISO (Sales, Trade and In Seach Of) boards - Aces and Eights is the vintage and antique board for selling playing cards. Their only prerequisite is to read the board's rules and abide by them. Non-members can also use the boards, but they do have other prerequisites that are explained in the rules - easy enough to reach and free of charge.
3) If a deck is rare and valuable enough and in good condition, there are auction houses that hold periodic auctions of playing cards and similar ephemera - perhaps consigning your item to one of those sales would be beneficial.
I should also point out, for what it's worth, that the presence of that tax stamp on the pack of cards indicates that it was at some point sold at retail in the United States, regardless of initial point of manufacture. "1 PACK" stamps were in use from 1940-1965, when the tax on playing cards was revoked.
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Just received my first no
pip no index deck today. :D Anyone happen to know what the "BC" or "CB" stands for on this deck back? Tuck box says "Made Expressly for CLUBS", so maybe the name of a club? Also, deck shipped from England. Let me know if you have any info or suggestions. Thanks.
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Just received my first no pip deck today. :D Anyone happen to know what the "BC" or "CB" stands for on this deck back? Tuck box says "Made Expressly for CLUBS", so maybe the name of a club? Also, deck shipped from England. Let me know if you have any info or suggestions. Thanks.
I think you might be confusing "no pip" with "no index." That deck does have pips - the suit symbols are all known as pips, as are the dots on the faces of a pair of dice (or a singular die). It's the indices in the corners that are lacking - they didn't come around until some time in the 1870s by most people's reckoning and by sometime around "the Great War" had just about pushed non-indexed cards out of existence. At some point, people were often referring to non-indexed, square-cornered cards as "faro cards" because that was the game they were being used for more often than not once indexed cards came into fashion. Yours, however, aren't square-cornered - that's a little unique, as far as I know. Rounded corners are another innovation that became popular in the 1870s or thereabouts, along with two-headed court characters and joker cards.
I have no idea what the initials stand for.
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Thanks for pointing that out, Don. Cards without pips would be a bit hard to play with.
BUT, does anyone know what the "CB" or "BC" stands for on these Dougherty American Playing Cards? Any guesses?
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Hey,
I got this card from a friend. Of which deck is this card? He found the card on the road. I like the design.
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Hey,
I got this card from a friend. Of which deck is this card? He found the card on the road. I like the design.
http://www.bicyclecards.com/product/bicycle-coral-and-indigo-fashion-playing-cards/#filter (http://www.bicyclecards.com/product/bicycle-coral-and-indigo-fashion-playing-cards/#filter)
http://www.portfolio52.com/deck/3884/view (http://www.portfolio52.com/deck/3884/view)
This is a deck that came out this year - not vintage - and is currently only available at Walmart. USPCC says that they should've been available on their website back around August (see comments on the bicycle cards website above), but it hasn't happened yet.
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I just post a question (maybe in the wrong thread),,, just wanna know if there could be some better place to get certain vintage cards other than ebay?
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with aviators, is there a timeframe where they switched from prefaced congress cards to the aviators we see today? ive been looking for early 2000s aviators for a while now(which is almost impossible for me to find for some reason) but from that i got into collecting aviators in general and i have some from just about every decade since the 40s to 80s and i noticed something, from the 80s on back, theyre prefaced. i havent really seen legit aviators with the real faces until you get later into the ohio era
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I just post a question (maybe in the wrong thread),,, just wanna know if there could be some better place to get certain vintage cards other than ebay?
Other than eBay, you could try auction houses that hold special auctions, you could try flea markets, garage sales, estate sales, and of course, there's always the 52 Plus Joker Annual Convention.
with aviators, is there a timeframe where they switched from prefaced congress cards to the aviators we see today? ive been looking for early 2000s aviators for a while now(which is almost impossible for me to find for some reason) but from that i got into collecting aviators in general and i have some from just about every decade since the 40s to 80s and i noticed something, from the 80s on back, theyre prefaced. i havent really seen legit aviators with the real faces until you get later into the ohio era
Hmm... prefaced Congress cards? I've personally never spotted Congress cards in an Aviator pack, though that has a lot to do with Congress cards not having been in a poker size for some time now, just bridge, while Aviators stopped making bridge-sized cards years ago as well, only coming in poker size.
What I have spotted is Aviator cards being used as filler for the more "generic brand" boxes like Mohawk, Torpedo, etc. as filler to use up the boxes. I'm told that at one time, those boxes were used to hold whatever leftover stock USPC had lying around that they needed to get rid of at discounted prices just to get it out of inventory. In my age, though, it was Aviator decks more often than not that was the filler material for those decks. It probably had to do with Aviator being the cheapest deck they made at the time, assuming those boxes were filled before 1987, which is when USPC acquired Arrco and all their brands - today, the cheapest brand that they personally make is Streamline and the cheapest brand they sell is Maverick, which is printed for them by a third-party contractor in China.
None of the Aviator decks I've discovered were ever pre-faced - Congress is the only deck I've seen them pre-face, and only because they used to offer a wider variety of card backs which changed with buying trends and fashion. Pre-printing the faces allowed them to be faster and more flexible in getting the cards made and out the door with whatever the back design of choice was at the time and allowed them to change designs swiftly as needed when sales of a particular pattern started to waver.
I think the burning question I have is "How old is the Aviator deck you have, that has pre-faced, poker-sized Congress cards in the box? Or are they bridge-sized?"
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im assuming theyre congress faces im not sure, but i know for sure theyre not the standard aviator faces. heres a couple, i cant remember if i read it on the lee asher page or somewhere else but i thought that uspc decks made without a code on the ace of spades is typically a prefaced deck, and im not too sure about the ones of the right since they do have a code but arent the normal faces.
http://imgur.com/ikpfh6N
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im assuming theyre congress faces im not sure, but i know for sure theyre not the standard aviator faces. heres a couple, i cant remember if i read it on the lee asher page or somewhere else but i thought that uspc decks made without a code on the ace of spades is typically a prefaced deck, and im not too sure about the ones of the right since they do have a code but arent the normal faces.
http://imgur.com/ikpfh6N
I have a 70% scaled-down copy of your image attached.
The two decks on the left are definitely not pre-faced - they have date codes. All four decks have USPC Aces of Spades, but they're "generic" aces that were used in many different deck designs. I've seen Aviator bridge decks using this design. It could be that at some point, they were using generic faces for Aviator decks - but do they have the Aviator backs?
The second deck's tuck box is quite interesting - I'm not sure when this design was discontinued, but I'd estimate it was some time in the 1960s, at the height of "jet culture." The old prop plane design hearkens back to the original design - the deck was released to commemorate the first-ever trans-Atlantic flight, made by Charles Lindbergh in the late 1920s. The plane on the box is meant to be a stylized version of his Spirit of St. Louis. By the '60s, though, prop planes as commercial airliners were rarities as jet planes started dominating the airline fleets, thus the change in the box design and even the deck's overall theme.
My best guess as to what the story with these decks are is that USPC, once they stopped using brands like Mohawk, Torpedo, Caravan, etc., to sell off whatever cards were left over/remaindered, they started getting rid of them in Aviator boxes. But it's really just a guess - if anyone has more information about this, I'd love to hear from you!
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I have some old cards I just aquire. Was going to use them but One has a phone number on it with an area code consisting of only one number. Another has the us playing card company Co. Windsor ontario. On it. Should I hang onto them is what I'm trying to find out. At this point they look like they've never actually been used. Only opened.
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My two cents:
you can use cards with the horse on them. Looks like a local advertising deck, so unlikely to be worth much (also unlikely to be very good cards)
Save the New Index, not worth a whole lot ($15-20), but neat historical deck from the 1930s or so
Potter's Scotch Whiskey, could be worth a bit ($20-25) depending on how old it is, if Potter's is still around and has a following, so I'd hold on to it
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I just bought a box of 45 decks of cards the other day for 20 dollars. Ended up containing a few decks worth some money but I'm not as curious about them as i am with one deck in particular. It is a 1915 squeezers number 35 from London about the same time as the triplets came out, " the only real competition against the squeezers".
Info wise this is all I've been able to find, I'm wondering about rarity, when they stopped being produced. I'm just missing the actual box, but still all 52 cards and jokers if not mistaken. I'm not wanting to handle them more than absolutely needed. Any and all info reguarding worth and the like would be wonderful. Quality wise for age and all i would rate it lower than it actually is but they would be between a 6 and an 8, very limited damage. Pictures avalible upon request.
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I just bought a box of 45 decks of cards the other day for 20 dollars. Ended up containing a few decks worth some money but I'm not as curious about them as i am with one deck in particular. It is a 1915 squeezers number 35 from London about the same time as the triplets came out, " the only real competition against the squeezers".
Info wise this is all I've been able to find, I'm wondering about rarity, when they stopped being produced. I'm just missing the actual box, but still all 52 cards and jokers if not mistaken. I'm not wanting to handle them more than absolutely needed. Any and all info reguarding worth and the like would be wonderful. Quality wise for age and all i would rate it lower than it actually is but they would be between a 6 and an 8, very limited damage. Pictures avalible upon request.
Pictures are really needed to evaluate your find. Keep the file size of each photo below 1,000 Kb - the forum can't receive image files larger than that. If you need to reduce file size, use image editing software to decrease the resolution.
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Hey, guys. Great forum!! First time poster.
I have this vintage set of playing cards - I know nothing about them. We’re given to my mother in the 60’s by her friend who had inherited them from their father... mint condition, full deck, gorgeous illustrations on every card but no original box, unfortunathely... but have been in a protective plastic shell since we got them all those years back...
Does anyone know anything about them? Age? Brand? Rarity? Anything really... if you need any other photos i’ll happily oblige :).
Thanks,
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Hey, guys. Great forum!! First time poster.
I have this vintage set of playing cards - I know nothing about them. We’re given to my mother in the 60’s by her friend who had inherited them from their father... mint condition, full deck, gorgeous illustrations on every card but no original box, unfortunathely... but have been in a protective plastic shell since we got them all those years back...
Does anyone know anything about them? Age? Brand? Rarity? Anything really... if you need any other photos i’ll happily oblige :).
Thanks,
Showing the Ace of Spades and the Jokers might be helpful in identifying the deck for you.
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Edit: okay, so I did a reverse image search and found out a little... Company seems to be a German manufacturer; Coeur... these came out in the 50’s it would seem - designed by Walter Krauss... the plastic box is, actually, also original...
I found a cpl other decks online all of which carried Coeur branding on one of the Jokers - mine don’t have any branding at all?
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You guys are an engaging bunch, huh?! 😂😂😂😂
Here’s a free tip... if you want to grow your community - humour the new people who stop by... some of us may have ended up engaging over the longer term... unfortunately, in this case, now we’ll never know... best of luck - hopefully you guys rediscover why you wanted a forum in the first place :).
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You guys are an engaging bunch, huh?! 😂😂😂😂
Here’s a free tip... if you want to grow your community - humour the new people who stop by... some of us may have ended up engaging over the longer term... unfortunately, in this case, now we’ll never know... best of luck - hopefully you guys rediscover why you wanted a forum in the first place :).
Walter Kraus (1908-85) is a famous East German card designer. He worked for Spielkartenfabrik Altenburg GmbH. This company was bought by Cartamundi in 2002 and merged with another subsidiary called Altenburger und Stralsunder Spielkarten (ASS). Your particular deck is called "Sweetheart No. 7011" and was designed in 1956.
Here is your deck: http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks06/d04591/d04591.htm (http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks06/d04591/d04591.htm)
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So here's a beat up mini deck I picked up on a flyer based on the back design. What I'm trying to determine is if this is an NYCCC Elf deck or some other NYCCC small deck. Hochman says NYCCC only made one small deck, the Elf deck, but lists is measurements as 1 15/16" x 2 15/16". This deck measures 1 15/16" x 2 13/16" or 2 3/4". Anyone out there have an Elf deck like this one, or have a different one that they can measure? Thanks for the help.
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So here's a beat up mini deck I picked up on a flyer based on the back design. What I'm trying to determine is if this is an NYCCC Elf deck or some other NYCCC small deck. Hochman says NYCCC only made one small deck, the Elf deck, but lists is measurements as 1 15/16" x 2 15/16". This deck measures 1 15/16" x 2 13/16" or 2 3/4". Anyone out there have an Elf deck like this one, or have a different one that they can measure? Thanks for the help.
It's not impossible that the cards were either inaccurately cut at the factory or that someone has trimmed them over the years to eliminate foxing, tears, etc. I know trimming is a common practice used in certain types of ephemera collectibles, particularly those made of paper - comic books and baseball cards come to mind. It's also possible that cutting inaccuracies might have slipped past "quality control" (or whatever passed for it back then) because it was a deck made for and sold mostly to children, thus they didn't think they'd be too fussy about the quality. It's especially possible if the company only made a single brand of miniatures - it was likely not a mainstay of the business and they might have not bothered with proper maintenance of the cutting die in an effort to churn them out fast and cheaply.
You guys are an engaging bunch, huh?! 😂😂😂😂
Here’s a free tip... if you want to grow your community - humour the new people who stop by... some of us may have ended up engaging over the longer term... unfortunately, in this case, now we’ll never know... best of luck - hopefully you guys rediscover why you wanted a forum in the first place :).
You'll have to forgive us for not having an answer immediately ready when you responded. Our membership largely consists of two categories of collectors - the bulk of them on the forum are more interested in and knowledgeable about modern decks than vintage or antique, while a select crew are more up on the older decks. The select crew I'm referring to are in the minority at the moment, though their numbers are growing. There's also a little "cross-pollination" taking place, with each group sharing knowledge, taking interest in and learning more about the other.
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Anyone out there have an Elf deck like this one, or have a different one that they can measure? Thanks for the help.
I have red and blue Elf decks. Mine are the same size you describe. The cards are absolutely 2 13/16".
Quick side note--the tuck is 2 15/16". Pic attached.
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Thanks for the pics and info, Skinny. Looks like mine is an Elf deck.
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Hi guys.
I have the 20-year old(as i'm) marlboro deck, 52 cards, without box or jokers. And i want to estimate deck price and rarity. I can't find any clue in the internet, so, may be someone can tell me anything about it.
Deck condition is rather shabby, i've played with this cards from my childhood.
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Hi guys.
I have the 20-year old(as i'm) marlboro deck, 52 cards, without box or jokers. And i want to estimate deck price and rarity. I can't find any clue in the internet, so, may be someone can tell me anything about it.
Deck condition is rather shabby, i've played with this cards from my childhood.
I'd be hard pressed to give you a firm value on that one. It's a European deck, something I'm not as familiar with. Four indices, one in each corner, tends to be the first giveaway in most cases. Also, with "Made in Belgium" on the Ace of Spades, there's a good chance the deck was printed by Cartamundi. They print all over the world, but their HQ is in Turnhout. The spade design on the Ace looks to me like a Cartamundi Ace of Spades.
I can tell you that there's value to it for both card collectors AND for cigarette memorabilia collectors, so that will bump the value up just a wee bit. But factoring in the condition of the deck, I wouldn't count on it being worth a lot, unless it was exceptionally rare and sought-after. That can happen with advertising decks now and then - made in limited numbers, distributed, then quickly forgotten by the company that commissioned them to be printed.
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I have wrote to the Cartamundi support with question about marlboro deck rarity and price. And they answered me today:
"It looks like a promotional order we once made for Marlboro … it is forbidden for cigarette companies to make advertisement with their logo on playing cards.
So I don’t have any information on this projects.
And because this is promotional deck that mean I can’t estimate any retail price for it ☹ this product was given a way gadget for free.
So definitely this is an collectable item but value of it can tell only a collationer of such items. I can’t help in this matter sorry."
So, i will be really grateful if anyone can give me a clue, how can i find marlboro cards collectors, or how can i estimate this deck.
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I have wrote to the Cartamundi support with question about marlboro deck rarity and price. And they answered me today:
"It looks like a promotional order we once made for Marlboro … it is forbidden for cigarette companies to make advertisement with their logo on playing cards.
So I don’t have any information on this projects.
And because this is promotional deck that mean I can’t estimate any retail price for it ☹ this product was given a way gadget for free.
So definitely this is an collectable item but value of it can tell only a collationer of such items. I can’t help in this matter sorry."
So, i will be really grateful if anyone can give me a clue, how can i find marlboro cards collectors, or how can i estimate this deck.
Similar laws were passed in the US restricting heavily where and how a tobacco company can advertise their products. That will make such decks all that more collectible. Just make sure that older decks aren't prohibited by any laws in your country! I'm just guessing, but it's not impossible that such a law could have been made retroactive - I've seen and heard of crazier things.
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Does anyone know if these cards are valuable at all? I have a few of them, and some are still sealed.
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If they were wide cards, then they'd be worth $15-20 opened, more if sealed. Narrow cards don't have much of a market. Only one I could find that sold on eBay sold for $9.99, open.
Here's a link to completed Blue Ribbon listings on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=10&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=blue%20ribbon%20playing%20cards%20-pabst&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
Depending on the back designs you have, I might be interested in some. Feel free to PM me with more info.
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If they were wide cards, then they'd be worth $15-20 opened, more if sealed. Narrow cards don't have much of a market. Only one I could find that sold on eBay sold for $9.99, open.
Here's a link to completed Blue Ribbon listings on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sop=10&_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=blue%20ribbon%20playing%20cards%20-pabst&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
Depending on the back designs you have, I might be interested in some. Feel free to PM me with more info.
I know what you mean about narrow or bridge-sized cards being less popular and thus less valuable, but for a design/brand like this, I think there'd be some interest. Blue Ribbon is a popular brand with vintage collectors.
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Does anyone know anything about these cards? They are made by gemaco and as you can see on the back they say Cosmo's Club Washington DC 1878. I read that the Cosmo's is an elite club for highly intelligent people and some members include Noble peace prize winners and presidents. I've looked all over for details about them but can't even find a picture of them. Any information at all would help.
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Can anybody help identify this deck? Court cards are unremarkable, but maybe the 3-pip aces (far right) are typical of some maker in particular. They look like a three at first glance. These are crudely printed on very heavy brownish card stock.
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Can anybody help identify this deck? Court cards are unremarkable, but maybe the 3-pip aces (far right) are typical of some maker in particular. They look like a three at first glance. These are crudely printed on very heavy brownish card stock.
Turnhoutse Speelkaarten No.74, printed by Brepols of Belgium c.1890-1910
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Fantastic! I was expecting a less precise answer. Would I have found this in the Hargrave book if I had it yet?
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Fantastic! I was expecting a less precise answer. Would I have found this in the Hargrave book if I had it yet?
Not sure i don`t have that book....also some more common names for this deck is "Cartes Etroites", "Cartes a Jouer" or "Cartes Marblees No2" and they came in either 52 or 36 card packs
Here`s a picture of my 36 card "Cartes a Jouer" pack from c.1905 ( Dierckx Zoon partnered with Brepols from 1849 till around 1911)
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Would I have found this in the Hargrave book if I had it yet?
No, it's not found in Hargrave's book.
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Jock1971, your deck looks higher grade than mine. Are they printed on coated stock? The corners are rounded. Wondering if my deck might have been made for the India market...and maybe more recent than the design would suggest. Much about these reminds me of the Belgian "Mogul" decks that can be found unused in original paper wrappers.
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I have a deck here that I cannot find anywhere. I can find plenty of the Congress 606 Decks but not this particular one. Any help is very appreciated, value, year it was made, etc. Tax stamp says 'Act of 1894' and '2 cents' Also, I hope I'm doing this post correctly.....
Thanks
Mark
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I have a deck here that I cannot find anywhere. I can find plenty of the Congress 606 Decks but not this particular one. Any help is very appreciated, value, year it was made, etc. Tax stamp says 'Act of 1894' and '2 cents' Also, I hope I'm doing this post correctly.....
Thanks
Mark
Do you have an image of the tax stamp?
The 2-cent stamp you describe was in use for a period from 1894-1924. In 1917, the tax went up to 7 cents, and again in 1919 to 8 cents. Rather than printing new stamps, these 2-cent stamps were overprinted with the "7," and later the "8," to indicate that the full tax was paid. In 1924, when the tax went to 10 cents a pack, a new stamp was designed and printed and this design was retired. Knowing if there is (or isn't) an overprint on the tax stamp would help to narrow down to a smaller time period when this deck was produced and sold.
Have you looked for this deck in the current edition of the Hochman's Encyclopedia? While it's not complete and may never be complete, it does have very extensive listings of cards produced in the US up to about the mid-20th century, in many cases with images.
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The tax stamp is partial, allowing me to only see the part described above. Also, of course, the stamp has been cancelled so there is ink over the stamp. I'll look at the encyclopedia mentioned above. Thanks.
Mark
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The Congress deck whose back design you have shown is called Summer and has a copyright date of 1905 by the United States Playing Card Company. It is one of three seasonal designs issued under the Congress brand featuring attractive women, the other two being Spring and Autumn. Although this back is not signed, it appears to be the work of one of the famous American illustrators who were active during the first decade of the 20th century, possibly either Howard Chandler Christy or Charles Dana Gibson. This back design was also issued without the beautiful floral border and with the name of the picture added in the lower right corner. In my opinion, if your deck were in at least EX condition with most of the gold edging still present and was complete with the joker, it would be valued somewhere in the neighborhood of $75.
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Ok, thanks a lot. I'm a collector/picker of many things, but cards is not one of them. I placed them on eBay under the title of '1905 Congress....' so if anyone is interested you can check them out there, or message me through here with offers. Maybe I can add to someone's collection.
Thanks and happy collecting!
Mark
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This should be an easy one for everyone here, but I'm still learning about dating cards and the differences in decks etc...
The code is J which would either be 1927 or 1947. There is no zip code so that cancels out 1967. The tax stamp fell off so no help there. I have a strong feeling it is 1947, but what would make a 1927 deck different than a 1947 one? Is there a guide to the changes in the guarantee card anywhere?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8468/y7JZrE.jpg)
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This should be an easy one for everyone here, but I'm still learning about dating cards and the differences in decks etc...
The code is J which would either be 1927 or 1947. There is no zip code so that cancels out 1967. The tax stamp fell off so no help there. I have a strong feeling it is 1947, but what would make a 1927 deck different than a 1947 one? Is there a guide to the changes in the guarantee card anywhere?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8468/y7JZrE.jpg)
That's a darn good question. I'm hesitant to answer because my knowledge of older decks is more limited, but I would say that the box design does look more typical of mid-1940s. I don't know exactly when USPC started with the "classic" box design, which was used in one fashion or another up to the company's relocation in 2009 as the standard Bicycle box design. But I do know there were other box styles that preceded it.
The number printed on the joker might be a possible clue as well - don't know when USPC was doing that, either. And yes, the joker design is another possible telltale. I just wish the tax stamp was intact!
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This should be an easy one for everyone here, but I'm still learning about dating cards and the differences in decks etc...
The code is J which would either be 1927 or 1947. There is no zip code so that cancels out 1967. The tax stamp fell off so no help there. I have a strong feeling it is 1947, but what would make a 1927 deck different than a 1947 one? Is there a guide to the changes in the guarantee card anywhere?
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New to this system. I messed up that quote, but here is some info:
It's been mentioned in Hochman's Encyclopedia that this particular 808 Ace first came into production around 1930 and was used for many years since. By that rationale and by what Mr. Boyer said, its most likely a '47 deck.
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Hello Tom, I have an older looking deck of 808 Bicycle U.S. playing cards. The box says "gold edges", the box isn't in great condition, but the inner deck is wrapped in cellophane and has gold edges it is in perfect condition. Can you give me any information about this deck? Any help would be appreciated. I live in Norwood, Ohio, former home of USPC and found them in a thrift store nearby. Thanks.
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Hello Tom, I have an older looking deck of 808 Bicycle U.S. playing cards. The box says "gold edges", the box isn't in great condition, but the inner deck is wrapped in cellophane and has gold edges it is in perfect condition. Can you give me any information about this deck? Any help would be appreciated. I live in Norwood, Ohio, former home of USPC and found them in a thrift store nearby. Thanks.
Even from the little information you've given, you're very likely to have a treasure. Are they Rider Back? Is the inner "cellophane" sealed? Which style is the tuck? Does it say "Extra Bicycle" or is the Gold Edges text on the bottom only? Do you see your tuck if you google Bicycle Playing Cards Gold Edges? Are they possibly not red or blue? You've described a sports car, but we can't tell if you have a 1980s Camaro or a new Lamborghini.
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They are Rider Back, the cellophane is sealed, it says "Gold Edges" on the bottom only, it is a blue deck. The only deck I've seen like it recently sold on Ebay, for $157.00. That is what piqued my interest in this deck. I have been collecting older decks with tax stamps for a couple of years now, and I'm still learning.
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Thank you skinny for the help. Can you or anyone give me information on the gold edged deck pictured above, how old Is it, the rarity of it, and an idea of the value. Any help would be appreciated.
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I think I can chime in on this one...
The deck's ad card shows a ZIP code on it. ZIP codes didn't exist prior to 1963. It's not the oldest of decks out there, but it's hardly young - definitely vintage. I'd guess probably somewhere in the late '60s or early '70s.
I notice in your photos that the deck seal appears at least partially missing - is there any of it intact on the tuck box? That can be a clue sometimes. For example, if it's a tax stamp, we can definitely narrow down your deck's origin - Federal taxes on playing cards were discontinued on June 22, 1965. If the seal is a self-adhesive sticker instead of a moisture-activated stamp, that's a big clue - then the deck is likely from the 1980s or later.
The easiest way to know for certain what year would be for you to open the cellophane - assuming you were willing to, of course. Then you could read the letter code on the Ace of Spades and we could reasonably definitively state what year it was made. But that's entirely up to you - some collectors would be loathe to do it, while others would be eager to see what they look like.
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Not really sure where to put this, but I have a couple of nomenclature questions.
A friend of mine today asked me if there was a name for a deck (similar to the ones on the “Card Sharks” reboot on ABC) in which the spades and clubs are blue in color instead of black. I couldn’t answer him, so I came here.
Similarly, is there a name for a deck in which the face cards have the same art across ranks, or in which they are recolored versions of the same base art? I submit as an example the Saks Fifth Avenue Art Deco-era cards.
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Not really sure where to put this, but I have a couple of nomenclature questions.
A friend of mine today asked me if there was a name for a deck (similar to the ones on the “Card Sharks” reboot on ABC) in which the spades and clubs are blue in color instead of black. I couldn’t answer him, so I came here.
Similarly, is there a name for a deck in which the face cards have the same art across ranks, or in which they are recolored versions of the same base art? I submit as an example the Saks Fifth Avenue Art Deco-era cards.
To my knowledge, there is no unique name for a two-color, four-suited deck where the suit colors aren't the traditional red and black. The closest thing there is would be a "no-revoke" deck, but that's not the same thing - it's a deck where each suit has a unique color, thus preventing someone from mis-bidding in a game such as bridge by confusing the two same-colored suits for each other. It's also found in some decks with a "low-vision" design, often with super-large indices that may take up an entire card's face - it's for people with poor eyesight who are having a tougher time telling suits apart.
Now, as far as a deck whereby the court ranks from suit to suit are nearly identical, with only color changes or minor art tweaks separating them but they're still made from the same base design, the only term I've ever heard for that is "lazy!" Some might refer to a deck in general as being "minimally customized," in that it's not the basic, standard faces, but it's not terribly creative, either, using art that gets "recycled" between the suits or being only minimally different from the completely standard faces used by the same printer. There may even be a re-use of a deck's back design, perhaps with just a recoloring. A pretty good example of this would be many of the colored variants of the Bicycle Rider Back that have come out over the years, particularly those made for magic companies like Magic Makers - in such cases, it's only the colors that are different - the art, both faces and backs, is 100% exactly as it appears on standard decks, save for printing gaff cards instead of ad cards.
This kind of lack of originality in court card art is, to me, usually done just for the sake of saving time or cost, and the result is never as attractive as a deck whereby the artist took the effort to make each court card's art unique. At one time, not that long ago, such decks would have been considered OK, but in a market where there's so much new, original work being created and produced, you really can't get away with it as easily without being thought of as lazy.
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I am brand spanking new to this forum, but I didn't know where else to go. I'm looking for 1 or 2 decks of this novelty deck I remember from the 70's that was called "Royal Flash" and has drug related suits (pot leaves for spades, peyote buttons for hearts, etc) Cannot find them anywhere. Don't know if there's any way to ever find them! Here's a link to a graphic of the face cards: http://www.dxpo-playingcards.com/xpo/dopey/pages/dopey01.htm I'd pay just about anything for a deck (well, within reason)
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I have a new but opened deck available. newalbany4 at hotmail.
Chris Turner
aka Andrew Daugherty
52 Plus Joker member.
Jeffersonville, Ind.
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Quick question: Anybody know what year USPC decided to change and shrink the court cards? (see pic).
I know it was post-1950, but I was hoping someone would know a more exact date. And bonus points is someone knows why they did it, cause I really like the old ones more.
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Quick question: Anybody know what year USPC decided to change and shrink the court cards? (see pic).
I know it was post-1950, but I was hoping someone would know a more exact date. And bonus points is someone knows why they did it, cause I really like the old ones more.
I can offer guesses as to why. Make more room for the indices. Make more room for the borders, allowing for a greater margin of error on the registration of faces to backs and preventing face elements from getting cut off when cards are cut from the deck sheet. But they are just that - guesses.
I'd wager the change occurred sometime around WW2. I'm just thinking of deck designs I've seen from that era and just before that era. But that, too, is a guess.
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Well, I know it was after the changed the tuck in 1950, because I have some post 1950 changed tucks with the non shrinks dink courts.
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Well, I know it was after the changed the tuck in 1950, because I have some post 1950 changed tucks with the non shrinks dink courts.
Ah - you say they changed the tucks in 1950... So it would stand to reason that perhaps there were some modifications made not just to the tucks at that time, but also to the faces. What you're saying makes some sense. I'm guessing they introduced some new printing processes/machinery, something which allowed them to print faster but at the same time reduced registration accuracy, and to compensate for this, they shrank the courts (and probably the pips as well) to get them a bit further from the card's edge when cut.
But bear in mind this is all just hypothetical conjecture and I'd wager that unless you found someone who was alive and working for USPC back then to tell you the real scoop, there's likely no records left at the company itself to indicate what the story is - or if the records are there, they're buried in some unindexed archive somewhere and are unlikely to be found. Between the passage of time and the changes of ownership, a lot of the company's history was pushed to the wayside in favor of focusing on the present and making the company as profitable as possible.
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Hi. I have never used a forum before so hope i am in the right area for my questions. I have a deck of playing cards that are, I believe from the 1940's. They were my grandparents, passed on to my mom and now passed on to me. I have researched them, but haven't found a lot of information on this specific deck. I have attached photos. Thanks in advance for any information you might have.
Lainie58
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From between 1950 and 1964. Bee decks did not say “Bee Cambric Finish” on the bottom of the deck until c1950, and tax stamps ended around 1964.
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Hi. I have never used a forum before so hope i am in the right area for my questions. I have a deck of playing cards that are, I believe from the 1940's. They were my grandparents, passed on to my mom and now passed on to me. I have researched them, but haven't found a lot of information on this specific deck. I have attached photos. Thanks in advance for any information you might have.
Lainie58
I concur with Chuqii. They appear to be in excellent condition - they're still sealed, though the clear cellophane looks like it's starting to come off after all these years. Not bad for a deck that's well over 50 years old. They'd have some value to collectors for their age and condition, but they're an extremely common deck from that period, so they're not worth a huge amount - my guess would be double-digits rather than triple-digits or more.
I kind of like how they've become a heirloom, already held by three different generations of your family. In your shoes, I'd simply hang on to them and continue to pass them on!
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I found this deck and picked it up super cheap because I thought I knew what it was but I don't. I can't seem to figure out what this deck is and I'm not sure why, so I'm asking for help.
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I found this deck and picked it up super cheap because I thought I knew what it was but I don't. I can't seem to figure out what this deck is and I'm not sure why, so I'm asking for help.
There's not a lot I know about it - but I can tell you this.
It was a USPC-made deck. There's a production code on the Ace of Spades.
That particular code's letter, P, was in use for the years 1911, 1931, 1951, 1971 and 1991. It was skipped in 2011, when N was used instead.
Judging from the artwork and size of the indices, my guess would be that this can't be older than 1951. The fact that the code appears to have been separately stamped into the surface of the card would make me tend to believe that it's not newer than 1951, either. Newer decks had the code printed in much the same manner as the rest of the card's design elements, as if from the same printing plates, while older decks had them stamped in, as if on another machine used just for that purpose. I can't tell you the exact year that changed, but I do remember as a kid that they weren't common and I was born in 1967.
These are just educated guesses. Other experts might have more authoritative information on this deck for you. On the plus side, if you own a Hochman's Encyclopedia, there's a chance you might find it there. I tried Jim Knapp's page on non-Bicycle USPC decks but it didn't turn up any hits. It does remind me a little of some of the Russell decks in that many of them used more generic-looking Aces of Spades, making the deck identifiable only through their boxes and their jokers.
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I found this deck and picked it up super cheap because I thought I knew what it was but I don't. I can't seem to figure out what this deck is and I'm not sure why, so I'm asking for help.
There's not a lot I know about it - but I can tell you this.
It was a USPC-made deck. There's a production code on the Ace of Spades.
That particular code's letter, P, was in use for the years 1911, 1931, 1951, 1971 and 1991. It was skipped in 2011, when N was used instead.
Judging from the artwork and size of the indices, my guess would be that this can't be older than 1951. The fact that the code appears to have been separately stamped into the surface of the card would make me tend to believe that it's not newer than 1951, either. Newer decks had the code printed in much the same manner as the rest of the card's design elements, as if from the same printing plates, while older decks had them stamped in, as if on another machine used just for that purpose. I can't tell you the exact year that changed, but I do remember as a kid that they weren't common and I was born in 1967.
These are just educated guesses. Other experts might have more authoritative information on this deck for you. On the plus side, if you own a Hochman's Encyclopedia, there's a chance you might find it there. I tried Jim Knapp's page on non-Bicycle USPC decks but it didn't turn up any hits. It does remind me a little of some of the Russell decks in that many of them used more generic-looking Aces of Spades, making the deck identifiable only through their boxes and their jokers.
I have had no luck finding the Ace in Hochmans. I have found the Joker in Hochmans pictured under P6 (NYCC). If you're sure it can't be older than 1951, then that would explain why it's not in Hochmans. My inclination was that it was a 1931, but I'm no expert.
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I have had no luck finding the Ace in Hochmans. I have found the Joker in Hochmans pictured under P6 (NYCC). If you're sure it can't be older than 1951, then that would explain why it's not in Hochmans. My inclination was that it was a 1931, but I'm no expert.
Yeah, I forgot that most of the listings in Hochman's are pre-1951... And the Ace is pretty generic, not terribly useful for getting the brand. I mentioned that it was common for many Russell brands to use generic Aces of Spades, making them distinct only in their jokers and their tuck boxes.
Also - my estimation was only an educated guess. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about 1951 and maybe it is 1931. I'm just going by what I remember of deck appearances, differences between older and newer faces, etc. The older 20th-century faces tended generally to have huge pips and small indices, a trend which I think started changing around the 1940s or so.
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I have a few of that ace, and it took me a long time to track down. I got some in a set of other decks which dated to 1920s and 1930s. Here is the link to the page from WWPCM. http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks08/d06454/d06454.htm
Hope it helps.
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I have a few of that ace, and it took me a long time to track down. I got some in a set of other decks which dated to 1920s and 1930s. Here is the link to the page from WWPCM. http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks08/d06454/d06454.htm
Hope it helps.
Very helpful, thank you for that. Looks like a USPCC - 1931 Clipper No. 934 (narrow). Even the back is listed on there.
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Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
Here is something I've been meaning to ask about. Playing cards for Dominos. Copyright 1908 by USPCC. Two decks of double 9's in a leather case. I tried to picture a representative sample, it's just likea set of Dominos, but in playing card format...
Not much artwork as there are no court cards. I tried to do some Internet research but never hit on the right keywords to yield much. So, how often do you see something like this? Any thoughts about the back?
Frankly, any information at all would be appreciated.
Hi Adam
Very nice set but probably not in the original case (yours looks like a nice old one, possibly period to the cards).
If memory serves me, USPC made two small domino sets; the first, the size of regular dominos, the second slightly larger. Both types came in a burgundy colored slipcase and both had red and white speckled backs. However your cards could possibly have been packaged in a tuckcase.
I do not recall seeing many of these over the years, we did own one set once but not in its original box.
Nice find - rare? Maybe!!
Good Evening All.
I bought these domino cards by USPCC from 1906 a couple of years ago along with the two other tiny domino cards (only a few of each) but am unsure where the other's are from. Does anyone have any ideas?
Best,
Mike
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I believe the middle card with the gold border on the face is from Chas. Goodall.
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Thank you Matt! I think you're probably right.
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Thank you Matt! I think you're probably right.
There is a bridge-sized domino deck that USPC might still have up on their web site for sale.
I also have another deck that might be of interest - mahjong playing cards! All the tiles from both American and Chinese standard mahjong sets in a single (very thick) pack of cards...
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Thank you, Don! I have the USPC domino bridge deck, I just could not find it at the time of my post :-\
Very interested in the mahjong/cards mix you mentioned. By chance do you have a link or picture?
Best,
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Thank you, Don! I have the USPC domino bridge deck, I just could not find it at the time of my post :-\
Very interested in the mahjong/cards mix you mentioned. By chance do you have a link or picture?
Best,
I don't, but a quick search at Amazon for "mahjong playing cards" will turn up several hits, all within the range considered affordable by most.
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Thanks so much Don. These are the ones I picked up in the past but I'll be on the lookout for others: https://www.ymimports.com/products/ym-aa003-a?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-4nuBRCnARIsAHwyuPrIRoTOamaFgXJC6Ar6fdH7LqpEJgpaVUvs4CSzpGKDe4rfY-LkXncaAqMOEALw_wcB
Best,
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Thanks so much Don. These are the ones I picked up in the past but I'll be on the lookout for others: https://www.ymimports.com/products/ym-aa003-a?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-4nuBRCnARIsAHwyuPrIRoTOamaFgXJC6Ar6fdH7LqpEJgpaVUvs4CSzpGKDe4rfY-LkXncaAqMOEALw_wcB
Best,
That looks like a better set than my own - mine are made on paper/pasteboard, while yours are plastic.
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Hi Guys,
I'm new here, glad I found you.
Attached are two pics of a deck I found recently.
General Mills Country Corn Bran 1969
I am not finding any information online or in worthpoint for this deck.
I'd like to know if it's rare or any other info about it.
Also, are there any books/ebooks that cover collecting playing cards?
Thanks!
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Hi Guys,
I'm new here, glad I found you.
Attached are two pics of a deck I found recently.
General Mills Country Corn Bran 1969
I am not finding any information online or in worthpoint for this deck.
I'd like to know if it's rare or any other info about it.
Also, are there any books/ebooks that cover collecting playing cards?
Thanks!
It's likely rare, in that it was a limited release, a promotional deck for a product that no longer exists and was released fifty years ago. I don't know if that's enough to make it very valuable or not, though - most such decks were not terribly high quality and weren't highly sought after, then or now. However, you do have the good fortune that it's a cross-collectible item - of interest to people with more than one collecting hobby. There are people who collect advertising decks like this, there are people who collect cereal promotional items/box inserts/giveaways, etc. So it might generate a little more interest if you put it on eBay than if it was just another still-sealed deck of cards from 1969.
I really couldn't put a value on it. The most accurate rule of thumb I tend to use would be to look at completed sales on eBay to see what they were selling for, but I can't imagine that eBay's had many sales of this deck in recent history.
There is an authoritative book on playing card collecting by Tom and Judy Dawson called the Hochman Encyclopedia of American Playing Cards. The second edition is an ebook available from the Conjuring Arts Research Center. However, the book has almost no entries younger than 1950. There was a massive explosion of playing cards that took place in the economic boom of the postwar years - the field just got too large to track with any degree of accuracy.
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I'm trying to get the names of a couple of Kem sets that I just cannot seem to track down.
In the attached image are the pics of the ones I am trying to track down. The first one has a date code of 251. The second set has a date code of 1195 and looks a lot like the Crown and Anchor Society logo (Royal Caribbean). Any help would be appreciated!
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Wish I could identify the first one, but it is also in my list of unknowns. The other deck is a Royal Caribbean deck. I imagine made for a Royal Caribbean for cruise ships.
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OK thanks man. I went ahead and ordered it so maybe if we are all lucky there will be an order card included with the name on it. Small chance, but here's to hoping!
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Greetings
Good to find you!
I found the card posted in a 2nd hand shop where I dig for books and there it was providing a bookmark.
Thinking to have it printed on a shirt!
Do tell if you have seen it before!
Thanks and a fine 2020 2 yew
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Greetings
Good to find you!
I found the card posted in a 2nd hand shop where I dig for books and there it was providing a bookmark.
Thinking to have it printed on a shirt!
Do tell if you have seen it before!
Thanks and a fine 2020 2 yew
It's a lovely card, but don't rush to get it made into a t-shirt just yet. If the card's young enough, someone may still hold the copyright to the artwork. I wish I knew more about it, but I don't. Just the one card? What does the face look like? Sometimes faces can be a way of identifying a printer because many of them use distinct designs.
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Hello out there!
It seems that I am getting a lot of confusion about Bicycle 808 backs. I have many 808 decks that I am trying to more accurately describe the backs, but I'm getting different information. Does anyone have a trust worthy link to bicycle back types? I need to classify the card backs with reliable info. The only one I am confident about is the rider back.
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You can go to https://www.portfolio52.com and search for Bicycle. They capture scans of the front and back of the tuck boxes and most Bicycle tucks show the card back on the back of the tuck.
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Hello out there!
It seems that I am getting a lot of confusion about Bicycle 808 backs. I have many 808 decks that I am trying to more accurately describe the backs, but I'm getting different information. Does anyone have a trust worthy link to bicycle back types? I need to classify the card backs with reliable info. The only one I am confident about is the rider back.
You definitely want http://bicyclecards.org/ (http://bicyclecards.org/).
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bicyclecards.org (http://bicyclecards.org)
This was extremely useful. Thank you. The expert and old fan backs are similar and that's where some of the confusion was.
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The Standard Playing Card Company
I'm doing research for an article and it includes needing to know who organized The Standard Playing Card Company of Chicago. This would be between when they started (ca 1890) and until they were taken over by USPC (1893/94). The Hochman, and other main references, make no mention of who the organizers were. They do not appear in the Chicago City Directory during that time or in the main trade magazine "The American Stationer". Seems strange that this company that was producing cards is so hard to find.
I'm also looking for a gentleman, apparently well known to the trade at that time, named Charles M Stevens that may be connected.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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The Standard Playing Card Company
I'm doing research for an article and it includes needing to know who organized The Standard Playing Card Company of Chicago. This would be between when they started (ca 1890) and until they were taken over by USPC (1893/94). The Hochman, and other main references, make no mention of who the organizers were. They do not appear in the Chicago City Directory during that time or in the main trade magazine "The American Stationer". Seems strange that this company that was producing cards is so hard to find.
I'm also looking for a gentleman, apparently well known to the trade at that time, named Charles M Stevens that may be connected.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Good question there. This is just speculation, but in my opinion it was probably another Longley company. The Bay State Playing Card Company was identified to be the same company the Buckeye Playing Card Company. And it is also noted that the Bay State Card Co. was connected with Card Fabrique, Globe, North American, and many others. They used the same spade aces and courts. We can be sure that Bay State merged with Standard Playing Card Co. of Chicago the very same year SPCC started in 1890.
Longleys were masters of tax evasion if you ask me.
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I was suspect of the Longleys being involved since they incorporated American Playing Card while in Chicago. I am working on an angle that they were tied into the National Card Company. I have proof they had an American Card factory in Indianapolis a block from National in 1891 until 1893 when they expanded their Kalamazoo factory. This factory never appears in their history.
I think American's Brownie No. 35's Joker was a jab at USPC.
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Not many other names that pop up in Chicago at that time. I'd like to hear more about it if you ever find something more or share the article when it's completed.
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Looking for help again. Spotted this National Card today while reading back issues of Card Culture. It is the USPC 1894 Calendar for February. It appears to have been an actual National Card. Trying to find out what deck so I can add it to my Want List. I am guessing possibly from Apollo or Rambler. Has anyone ever seen the factory (after the takeover) appear on a National Deck?
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The Standard Playing Card Company
I'm doing research for an article and it includes needing to know who organized The Standard Playing Card Company of Chicago. This would be between when they started (ca 1890) and until they were taken over by USPC (1893/94). The Hochman, and other main references, make no mention of who the organizers were. They do not appear in the Chicago City Directory during that time or in the main trade magazine "The American Stationer". Seems strange that this company that was producing cards is so hard to find.
I'm also looking for a gentleman, apparently well known to the trade at that time, named Charles M Stevens that may be connected.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
According to this page, National goes back to 1886, originally based its operations out of both NYC and Indianapolis.
https://sites.google.com/site/cardconjurer/article/dating/manufacturers#NC
That Brownie joker makes jabs at a few companies - I see references to Andrew Dougherty and others in there as well.
Consider it possible that the card in the 1894 calendar might not actually exist. It has occasionally happened where they used artwork for cards that never made it into print. It might also simply be something the art department put together rather than basing it off of an actual card in print. Not saying it DOESN'T exist - just that it's possible it doesn't.
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It is probably a fabricated picture as you say. I am always on the lookout for anything National. Have you visited my site at https://thenationalcardco.weebly.com/ ? Always looking for comments and suggestions.
The National Card date is off by 2 years on the list. My research shows the company registered the name on October 9, 1888 and incorporated the next day in New Jersey. No cards were put on the market until February 1890. (Newspaper article at that time in the Indianapolis News) USPC did buy them in 1893 (It became USPC's Factory #5 then). In February 1904 USPC registered the National Card Company name under their copyright.
American Card started in Kalamazoo in 1890 according to their company history and Ira Ransom's obituary (Company Manager). Also these 2 articles have evidence of their beginning.......
The American stationer., v. 29 (1891) January 1st
Wm. H. and S. H. Longley, of this city, have organized a stock company to be called the "American Playing Card Company," having a factory at Kalamazoo, Mich. The building is 57x120 and four stories, all of which will be used in the various processes of turning out the "squeezers."
January 15th
The American Playing Card Company, Kalamazoo, Mich., is now manufacturing its new lines of playing cards and invites the favors of the trade.
A 1892 photo of their factory, in the museum in Kalamazoo, states the company was incorporated October 10, 1890. Still looking for this incorporation proof.
I am presently working on a story about an unknown American Playing Card factory that was in Indianapolis just 1 block from the National Card factory. This was in 1889. It disappears by 1892 which is the same time the factory expands in Kalamazoo.
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Great website you put together. Very nice.
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Thank you, I appreciate that. I have many, many hours of research into National. I believe any new information that is put out in our hobby helps the next collector.
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I just found the calendar from the year before (1893). Same card, 2 of Hearts, different face. I am convinced the 1894 one with Factory #5 was created for the calendar now.
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I just found the calendar from the year before (1893). Same card, 2 of Hearts, different face. I am convinced the 1894 one with Factory #5 was created for the calendar now.
That 1893 calendar REALLY looks like the 2H was "ginned up" just for the calendar image rather than being taken from an actual deck. It's got a USPC ad printed right on it. I'm in agreement that the '94 calendar was probably the same thing.
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I found these two singles on eBay but besides vintage and what is written on the back (silver one "scandal"/ gold one "the eavesdropper") there're no further infos. Anyone knows additional stuff?
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Hello everyone. I am a new forum member and would like to determine the value of these KEM cards. I would like to know as much as possible about them.
I only know the models: Seville and Country Geese. Seville's cardboard box has an address in New York and Country Geese's in Stanford.
As the packages are sealed, I can only see the details that I present in the photos. I would also like to know if the boxes could be made of Bakelite.
I thank you in advance.
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Maybe $30 each. Best bet is to go to eBay and do a search for sealed KEM cards and look at the sold items.
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Looking for information about when USPC created air cushion playing cards. I found a 1909 ad that stated it was new. Also where USPC trademarked the name in Canada in 1910. I am in contact with August Crusius's great-granddaughter. She said August was called "Air Cushion Crusius" because he had something to do with it. Anyone have any solid information?
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I checked my 1909 Official Rules of Card Games from USPCC. The Bicycle listing did not mention Air-Cushion finish, but other listings did. I would guess they just didn't update the Bicycle listing, but they were available. I don't have a 1908. The next USPCC Official Rules of Card Games was not until 1911, and Bicycles are mentioned with Air-Cushion finish. So, in all, I think 1909 is pretty spot on.
***** Updated ********
So around March of 1908 A. Crusius of USPCC was handing out "the daintiest little packs" showcasing new Congress designs and the Air-Cushion Finish. Also, 1907 US Patent Office records USPCC's Air-Cushion Finish.
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I like the book. 1909 is the concensus. Stll digging.
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Looking for any cards, or information, about Celluloid cards prior to 1900.
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Trying to identify 2 card backs designed for Andrew Dougherty in 1877. Any ideas? Best pictures I have.
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Hello, I'm totally new and this is my first post.
I have been given a card set and knowing it's old I've been unable to obtain any information on this set, ie where and when it is from.
I believe it was brought from Europe by my grandparents or their parents.
Here are some details:
It appears to be a bridge set including coasters, table cover, scoring book (unused), double deck case holding 2 virtually unused BP Grimaud decks, gold with symbols - one green the other red. Each deck has 3 joker's.
The decks have a compass Rose in the middle, and there is embossing around the edge of the card matt. Each edge of the card matt has one of the poles, n, s, o(oest) and e, so I think the cards and the set are a match.
In the centre of the coasters are a crest with what I think is a harp.
I haven't been able to find any information on a set like this to determine a date for the set. I'm guessing it would have been a gift set, so any information would be appreciated.
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Hi there Experts,
I recently found a seemingly old deck of fortune-telling cards when I received a card collection from my uncle. Can you guys please tell me more about the deck and when it was made?? It has a velvet case as well as a booklet on how to read the cards.
Thanks so much!
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Since there is a zip code on the one Gypsy Witch card then they are after 1963.
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Hello, I'm totally new and this is my first post.
I have been given a card set and knowing it's old I've been unable to obtain any information on this set, ie where and when it is from.
I believe it was brought from Europe by my grandparents or their parents.
Here are some details:
It appears to be a bridge set including coasters, table cover, scoring book (unused), double deck case holding 2 virtually unused BP Grimaud decks, gold with symbols - one green the other red. Each deck has 3 joker's.
The decks have a compass Rose in the middle, and there is embossing around the edge of the card matt. Each edge of the card matt has one of the poles, n, s, o(oest) and e, so I think the cards and the set are a match.
In the centre of the coasters are a crest with what I think is a harp.
I haven't been able to find any information on a set like this to determine a date for the set. I'm guessing it would have been a gift set, so any information would be appreciated.
BP Grimaud is a well-known French manufacturer of cards - they were founded in 1848 and after a short series of purchases and name changes became part of Cartamundi in 2014.
https://cartamundi.com/en/our-brands/grimaud-playing-cards/
Considering the quality and appearance of the set, it's entirely possible that the set itself was made by a different company, with the Grimaud cards simply added in afterwards by the firm that made the rest of the set's goods. While it isn't impossible that Grimaud put this set together cards and all, something as elaborate as this would more likely go the other way around, with cards added by the maker of the other items.
The fact that the mat and the cards both have a compass rose isn't quite as significant as it might sound - it's a common decorative theme, found on a lot of home furnishings - it only signifies that the cards might have been a custom order to go with the set or it might have simply been a happy coincidence that they went together so well.
Are there any manufacturer markings on the other items in the set?
Hi there Experts,
I recently found a seemingly old deck of fortune-telling cards when I received a card collection from my uncle. Can you guys please tell me more about the deck and when it was made?? It has a velvet case as well as a booklet on how to read the cards.
Thanks so much!
Since there is a zip code on the one Gypsy Witch card then they are after 1963.
That's a fun deck - Gypsy Witch cards in this incarnation originated I believe in the 1930s (or at the least were popularized then) and are still in print today, though these days I think it's U.S. Games Systems that makes them rather than USPC. USGS is best known for making many different kinds of divination and tarot decks, but a smaller collection of standard playing cards, mostly novelty/themed decks, and some of what they sell are actually made by Cartamundi - which now owns USPC, interestingly enough.
I'm in agreement in that they're definitely made after 1963 - but I might even guess that they're after 1965. While the ZIP code was implemented in 1963, many businesses didn't follow suit with using it right away, with some taking longer than others. However, in addition to having a ZIP code, this deck is lacking a tax stamp - if memory serves, federal taxes on playing cards were abolished in October of 1965. Sure, it's possible the stamp fell off, but judging solely from the photo, there doesn't appear to be even a remnant of stamp glue in place on the box - even if the box was cellophane-wrapped, the tax stamp usually went directly on the box, not on its wrapper.
I don't know exactly when that Congress joker was added to Gypsy Witch cards - that might help narrow down the date it was made. Knowing when USPC stopped using that joker would also be a good clue.
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Thank you for the input, I've been unable to identify any manufacturer's stamp or markings. Iregularities in size and shape suggest to me that parts of the process must have been handmade, while others were machine. Google hasn't turned up any similar sets or patterns either for me.
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Thank you for the input, I've been unable to identify any manufacturer's stamp or markings. Iregularities in size and shape suggest to me that parts of the process must have been handmade, while others were machine. Google hasn't turned up any similar sets or patterns either for me.
Very nice - handmade parts! Workmanship like that was more common at one time in history; these days, it often only appears in either very high end goods, homemade/folk crafts or objects made in parts of the world where labor is pretty cheap - I remember obtaining a travel chess set with stone pieces that were hand carved in simple shapes, and it was I think from either India or Indonesia. Would you say that the craftsmanship looks more high end or low end, or somewhere between?
Sounds like you've got a really nice set there. Excellent find.
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Hello everyone. I'm not a collector and I know about cards nothing. I just need help with a deck identification. Could you name country of origin, manufacturer and year of issue if possible? Thank you!
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Hello everyone. I'm not a collector and I know about cards nothing. I just need help with a deck identification. Could you name country of origin, manufacturer and year of issue if possible? Thank you!
Sorry for the long delay in replying.
It's going to be nearly impossible to determine who made this deck and when, not unless you get very lucky. They were somewhat common in the 1950s and 1960s, printed by many smaller companies which likely no longer exist. "Artist model" decks featuring photography of nude women in simple, basic, arguably non-sexual poses as if for a painting or sculpture were made as a way to sell soft-core pornography (nudity without the depiction of sexual acts) while at the same time trying to avoid being classified as pornography, aiming instead to be considered "artistic." Community standards of the time would have make decks like this the kind of thing that would be sold under the counter or in an adult bookstore, and because of the stigma (not to mention possible criminal and civil liability) that can come with such an association, many producers and manufacturers of these decks left their names off of decks like this.
The back design looks vaguely like the "banknote" style backs that were used in the Aristocrat and Blue Ribbon deck brands from Russell, which eventually became a USPC subsidiary - which itself is now a subsidiary of Cartamundi (reminds me of Russian nesting dolls)! But I'd say it's probably not from them - more likely an imitation or a knockoff trying to look like a higher-quality product than it actually is, something that wasn't uncommon with cheaply-made decks like these, especially when printed without any manufacturer's attributions anywhere on the cards and possibly the packaging as well. Do you still have the box? Even if it isn't completely intact, it may be useful in identifying the maker and country of origin, possibly even the approximate manufacture date.
Your best bet would be to hunt it down the old-fashioned way at "World Web Playing Cards," over at http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/ - they have a very extensive database of designs, including items along these lines. You'll have to do a LOT of looking around, opening up image files for a number of different decks - it's going to be pretty time-consuming, but on the plus side, I don't think that they have a huge number of nude model decks on file. You can try narrowing the search at first to just American-made decks - the "guarantee" wording is a little similar to the type that was commonly used by USPC at the time. There's also a chance that the deck was actually made in China, even if for an American producer, though I imagine importing nude images back then was fraught with risks - I have no idea what the Customs regs were 60 or 70 years ago, but I imagine stuff like this would have been restricted in some manner.
Another possibility would be to seek out people who collect nude decks - there's a fair number of collectors who specialized in this category. The only issue there would be that decks of this nature were printed in smaller numbers and generally more likely to wind up destroyed, trashed, etc. than ordinary playing cards would be - a bachelor gets a girlfriend, fiancee or wife who doesn't approve of porn, a mom finds them in the pants pocket of her son, teacher catches kids with them in the school yard, etc. - so there would be fewer surviving examples than other contemporary decks of the same era.
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I have a pair of Bicycle Sprocket #2 that are two different "Blue" back shades. One is blue and the other very dark (navy of maybe even black). I've done a bit of research and only see reference to red and blue.
The dark one is an Air Cushioned finish and the lighter one has an Ivory finish. The paper color on both are consistent with old paper.
Any idea what I'm looking at? Why is one so dark and one so light? Did the ink color vary that much from one lot to another?
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I have a pair of Bicycle Sprocket #2 that are two different "Blue" back shades. One is blue and the other very dark (navy of maybe even black). I've done a bit of research and only see reference to red and blue.
The dark one is an Air Cushioned finish and the lighter one has an Ivory finish. The paper color on both are consistent with old paper.
Any idea what I'm looking at? Why is one so dark and one so light? Did the ink color vary that much from one lot to another?
Hello, Bruce,
YES, you can get variations in the coloring of a card back. I've owned decks printed in the recent past where the color of the card backs actually varied within the same DECK, never mind from deck to deck - and that's for a deck made in the "computer age," where you'd think the . If someone at the factory used a little too much of one pigment or not enough of another pigment, you'd wind up with slight differences from print run to print run on the precise shade of the deck, though generally speaking, a blue deck would still be somewhere in the blue family of colors, as your two cards here are.
Some decks were printed with higher standards for quality control than others, so that's another possible factor that could affect the consistency of a deck's precise back color. A really cheaply made deck (say, for example, Steamboats), was manufactured a little more on the "quick and dirty" side, while something like a gilded Army and Navy deck would tend to have much tighter standards of quality all around.
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thank you very much for your willingness to teach and answer questions! We need more people like that, willing to share knowledge. that's why I salute you. Best,
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Having a hard time tracking this joker down, so I need some help. Same back as NYCCC Hart's French Whist, but card is wide size. Anyone know what brand this joker goes with?
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Clay, at the risk of responding to your question with another question, here is a mysterious Japanese movie or stage star deck with the same back. The deck is small, 1 13/16 x 2 7/8. As opposed to the Kinema deck by the Universal PCC, this one has all Japanese text.
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OK Clay - found it - USPCC "Beverly"
http://www.a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks14/d12018/d12018.htm
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Thank you, Matt!
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Ok, here's a new one for me. I bought a USPCC Congress Rose deck, and it has a type of wavy finish on the card I've never seen on another USPCC deck. Anybody else seen something like this on a USPCC deck or have a guess as to what this is?
The Congress Guy, Kevan Seany, let me know this is Silk Finish. He even has a video about it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wU0SQ7bWOI0
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Yes, this is the silk finish. Only a couple of back designs were issued with it.
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Please see the attached photograph of another back design (1st version of Autumn) that was issued with this particular finish.
This back design and Rose are the only two that I am aware of that were issued with this unusual and apparently short-lived finish.
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What I find interesting is that the Silk Finish looks a lot like the Bee 216 back - see a pic of that deck at https://conjuringarts.org/2013/02/discovered-bee-216-erdnase/
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Does anyone have any knowledge of a box for this deck? Or any owners? The deck is called ROYALTY but is called BOUQUET in the Hochman (NS10) It was designed by Alice D Ley of Wayne, Nebraska. It originally came in a box with another deck called 400 and instructions for game play. Working on a story about this deck.
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Here are pictures of both the top and bottom of the original box for this very interesting card game. The box only contains a single deck but came with two sets of separate instructions, one for each game that could be played with the same deck. One game is called The Royal "400" and the other is the game of Royalty. Both are copyrighted 1909. I am also showing a picture of the 53rd card which could be treated as a joker and, as you can see, is called Jack Frost. It would be nice if, in the course of your research about Alice D. Ley of Wayne, Nebraska and, presumably this game itself, who is the royal personage who appears on each of the court cards.
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Here are pictures of both sides of the two 4-page instruction leaflets, one for each game, that were inserted in the original box.
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These pictures are fantastic. I will use them in my story if you don't mind with a credit to you. The cards do not feature any actual royalty. The people on the court cards were just friends of Alice's in Wayne. She had a launch party on New's Eve for 1910 where many of the people featured attended. The tiny local historical society has no information about who these people might be. I have been in contact with her great-grandson (he is still in Wayne) and his family has no idea. Should be posting the story by next week.
I have 2 pictures of Alice. Both have here with flowers on her dresses.
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These pictures are great. My deck happens to have 11 pips in lieu of Queens - i.e. It has Kings, Maids and 11s. I have also seen decks with Kings, Queens and Maids and Ace through 10.
I wonder if there is a story about one of the Queens falling out of favor or requesting to be removed!
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Well, now I am a bit confused. Toby your pamphlet refers to Kings, Queens, Maids and 11s. Was this a 57 card deck??
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The complete deck consisted of 57 cards in total = 4 Bouquet cards (or Aces), 4 Kings, 4 Queens, 4 Maids and 4 each of the ranks 2-11 plus the single Jack Frost card. The original box in which it was issued contained just this one deck as that was all that was needed to play either game. You are welcome to use any or all of my photos in your story but I seek no credit for having supplied them. I am glad to be able to contribute to the increased knowledge of other collectors. I am quite surprised to hear that the court cards do not show royal personages but were simply local townspeople that she knew. That certainly makes this deck something of a local or regional issue and I wonder how widely this game was circulated. I am also left to wonder how the sentence, or erroneous assumption, that "The court cards are the reigning royalty of the day." got into the NS10 listing in the Hochman encyclopedia as well as the incorrect title "Bouquet Playing Cards" and incorrect date of 1901. Nevertheless, I shall look forward to your upcoming story about the creator of this unusual game.
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Here is the story. Thanks again for the info and pictures.
https://fpopcg.weebly.com/alice-d-leys-royalty.html
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Here are 2 decks I am working on. The boxes have that USPC look but cannot prove if they printed them. Hoping to find one with a tax stamp to pin it down. Swastika was 1906-12 and Cheyenne was 1912. One company lead to the other.
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I can contribute two photos to your latest endeavor, albeit somewhat indistinct ones at that.
The first shows the letterhead for the Swastika Card Co. of Adrian, Michigan and it is dated Feb. 18, 1908.
The second shows the signature of S.R. Beal at the bottom of this same typewritten letter to a customer in Nebraska. The paper used is extremely thin and fragile.
As an aside, did playing card games require tax stamps or was it just decks of playing cards that had to have them?
I have many Fireside Games decks, as well as other antique playing card games, in my collection and not one of them has any trace of a tax stamp anywhere, hence, my question to you.
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The deck contained 55 cards which should have made it be required for a tax stamp (Any deck with 54 cards and over) The printing on the boxes just have that USPC look.
I have several documents from the Lenawee County Historical Society where Adrian, Michigan is located. They have a deck of Cheyenne on display but never knew anything about Swastika. Same deck just a different name. That will come out in my story.
I will cover the life of Samuel Roy Beal (the man that designed Swastika and signed your document), his partner James Denny Crandall and William O. Albig (who changed Swastika to Cheyenne)
UPDATE: The story is now available at https://fpopcg.weebly.com/swastika---cheyenne.html
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Ok, card sages, here's a deck I have been unable to identify. It came with a lot of antique cards. I'm assuming special order, but no idea for whom. Any guesses?
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I do not know if this will help you to identify your deck, which I am happy to be able to see, but here is it's matching joker with the title "The Vogue". It looks as if it might have been a brand issued by one of the Midland PCC companies some time during the 1920's but this is just my speculation.
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That is a big help. Thank you!
I was able to find the deck at the WWPCM ( http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks05/d02032/d02032.htm ) who listed the manufacturer as Buzza Co. I found a bit about Buzza Co at The Vintage Valentine Museum - http://www.vintagevalentinemuseum.com/2014/06/maker-buzza-cardozo.html - and OldImprints.com - https://ilab.org/assets/catalogues/catalogs_files_592_greetingcards.pdf
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To pick up again on the introduction of Air-Cushion Finish discussion from earlier in the thread, I was on Google Books for something else and stumbled into some interesting info. According to the ads, the first decks to have Air-Cushion Finish were two Congress decks - Dixie Girl and Moonbeams. Ad is from Oct 7, 1909. First mention I found of Bicycle decks with Air-Cushion Finish was Sept 17, 1910. Ads below.
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So, I won an EBAY auction last week from someone in Maine who was selling some Playing Card Decks and memorabilia. He had several of these printing plates and I managed to win the plate that I really liked, which was the Queen of Diamonds. I was wondering if anyone recognizes the specific design or can tell me anything about it. Especially if any decks were actually made with this plate?
Several things i already know about it :
1.) It seems bigger than your normal card deck size.
2.) It is a single ended figure, so not sure if it is really old or if it was used to produce a reproduction type deck.
3.) The name "Rachel" is written down the side, so that would likely identify it as a French "Paris Pattern" Queen of Diamonds. The Paris Pattern is the only French version that I know of that named the courts, but possibly some of the other French patterns did.
Thanks for any information you nice folks can provide.
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Does anyone have any items, or early decks of cards, from A. Ball & Brother Company of Chicago in the late 1800s? Putting together a story about A. Ball which happens to be Annie Ball.
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Does anyone have any cards from a card game called "Election"? I cannot find any pictures for a story I am working on about it.
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Here are some pictures of the front of the original box and several cards from this political game. Once again, I apologize for the indistinct quality of these pictures but, hopefully, something is better than nothing. Unfortunately, my original box is in dark red which is hard to photograph and, of course, there has to be a paper pull disturbing the central image of the hand of cards. The next picture is of the card back which is an interesting design consisting of money bags and scrollwork with what looks like the inventor's initials (G.R.C.?) in the center oval. The deck consists of 52 cards, 45 of which are numbered sequentially in the order in which each state joined the union (Delaware # 1 - Utah # 45). The remaining 7 cards are photographed below and they are Flag, President, 2 Labor cards and 3 Trust cards. Unfortunately, my example lacks the instructions but they are probably similar to other political card games that were issued during that era (1896-1904). I look forward to your upcoming article.
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GRC is for Guy R Cockley the inventor. I had an article that describes exactly the cards you posted. I am tying this deck to a story about "Political Euchre" from 1884 by Louis Lum Smith. Cockley's idea was really close to Smith's deck. You win by accumulating enough electorial votes to elect your president. The votes appear on the cards.
Thanks again for coming up with pictures of these rare cards.
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Looking for information about a playing card company in Milwaukee between 1876 and 1883. The owner was Frederick A Klatt. His partner was a hardware store owner named A W Coe. I cannot find any pictures, or names, of his cards. Even Klatt disappears after 1883. Any information would be appreciated.
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Hi all
Hoping for some help dating my consolidated dougherty tally ho deck. I've attached photos.
I believe it's 1954 my reasoning is the tax stamp I believe is from 1940-1965 and looking at the ace, the code is T which I believe would mean 1934, 1954 or 1974 and 1954 fits with the tax stamp.
I'm pretty new to this and I'm hoping I'm right but happy to be proved wrong so am I missing something, should I check something else or is there a better way to date a deck than the way I have got to the figure.
If anyone has any general dating tips or resource websites. I couldnt seem to find a list of all dougherty aces for example which would be handy I'm sure it's out there but just don't know where.
Appreciate the help.
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Deleted, issue resolved
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Trying again
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Based on the tax stamp and date code, I'd agree with 1954. Also, 1954 was the last year for the larger images on the court cards.
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Thanks Chuqii
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Good Day Experts! Found this deck at a resale shop and I believe it to be the Oak Leaf Back Bicycle deck with the branded Bicycle ace. It is missing the jokers and is not pristine. I am a bit of a card collector but generally only do decks that interest me like theme decks, art decks, tarot (for the art, not the woo), and the like. I collect what I like, not what has value. I really have no interest in standard playing card decks. Couple questions: What is this deck worth? Where would be a good place to sell it? I could not find any comps on line but know it could be the rare branded ace deck!? Would rather list it on a collectors site than ebay or the like, even if it means I got less for it.
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My guess is $40-50 with condition and no joker. I think there are some groups on facebook where you could sell it if you are looking for a collector.
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Thank you. I will look on FB for some groups. I appreciate your time.
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Here's a question for the more knowledgeable Bicycle collectors out there. I have a 1952 Bicycle New Fan back with an interesting tax stamp cancellation. Appears to be cancelled by "VMS USA" Anyone know what that could be? Pics below. Thanks for the help.
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I have a list of known and unknown cancellations from the American Revenue Association. V.M.S./U.S.A. is an unknown.
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Here's a question for the more knowledgeable Bicycle collectors out there. I have a 1952 Bicycle New Fan back with an interesting tax stamp cancellation. Appears to be cancelled by "VMS USA" Anyone know what that could be? Pics below. Thanks for the help.
Under most circumstances, a deck of cards with a tax stamp has that stamp canceled with an inked stamp of the company that made it, which in this case would be USPC. It sure does look like it says VMS USA, but I have no clear idea what it could mean and why it's there.
I considered acronyms, but none of them for this combination of letters would make any sense - I'd thought that maybe, just maybe, the "V" stood for "Veterans" (plural) or Veterans'" (possessive plural), as if to indicate these were for some veterans' organization, but my stab in the dark came up dry. It was a long shot - something done for the military services would be more likely to have a tax exempt stamp on it than an actual tax stamp. The logic behind my thinking was that the US was engaged in the Korean War at the time.
Maybe it's some secret division of USPC from the '50s?
Looking over some articles I saw on tax stamps, I considered the odds that it might be stamped for foreign sales. But then what the heck would the IRS have to do with it, right?
I even looked up the abbreviations of some popular manufacturers of the period - not that it would be logical, but we've ruled out logical so far! There's no match, even if you think the "V" was a "W".
I'm at a loss to even guess at this point.
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Here's another puzzler, and I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen either of these decks, or if they were ever produced. I've got what looks to be a printing samples or proofs for a tuck box for a 525 Aristocrat Multi-Color deck and a No. 06 Square Deal, both from Russell Playing Card Co. Anybody ever seen one of these or have a deck?
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Here's another puzzler, and I'm wondering if anyone has ever seen either of these decks, or if they were ever produced. I've got what looks to be a printing samples or proofs for a tuck box for a 525 Aristocrat Multi-Color deck and a No. 06 Square Deal, both from Russell Playing Card Co. Anybody ever seen one of these or have a deck?
Can't say that I have, but they do look pretty cool, particularly the Aristocrats. That would have been a cool idea - multi-color card backs... I'm drooling just thinking about it...
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Here is something I noticed recently with court cards (US pre-1930). I have searched the "Ask Alexander" archives and cannot find that anyone has mentioned this before. Why does the Queen of Diamonds face to our LEFT on cards made by the Western card makers (USPC, APC, KPCC, etc) and the ones made by East Coast makers (Dougherty, Cohen, Hart, NYCC, Pyramid, etc) face to our RIGHT? Has this ever been discussed?
This would seem to be a way to narrow down where an unknown deck came from.
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Along that same line of observance of the QoD facing I have dug deeper into a subject I brought up on my website about the Longley brothers. That is the symbol on the hilt of the sword of the KoH. The symbol (shown below) can be followed through all their connected card companies (Card Fabrique, Globe, American Playing Card, USPC and National). (First symbol shown below) I have also found connected symbols for ones used by Telbax, Midland and the Independent Playing Card Company which are all connected to Wesley Culp. (Second Symbol shown below)
I am compiling a database of these symbols and an article/website. I will be searching out more decks to photograph and catalog at the Cleveland Convention this year to test my theory. So if you are there with an odd deck please come see me. If you are not coming I would appreciate any KoH closeup photos. My email is daveseaney@att.net
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Can someone help me find out the year this deck is please?
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SUBJECT : Mystery Piatnik deck I need help identifying.
I won this deck from a seller in England a couple of weeks ago. It is made by Ferdinand Piatnik & Sons, Vienna. I researched this deck for days before I broke down and bought it and researched for many days more, but I could find no reference online or in any of my books. It is a rather unusual deck (see photos below), especially for a Piatnik deck. From all the evidence I can gather, I am pretty sure it is an antique deck that I am dating as from the 1920s. But again, I searched everywhere and I can find no match for it, not anywhere online and not in the Fournier Museum books. I even searched all the Fournier entries, since the deck appears to be a recreation of an even earlier deck. No matches there, either. So, if anyone can identify this baby, I'd love some information on the Piatnik mystery deck.
So, here are the details I know about this deck :
1.) It is a 52-card poker type deck with French suits, and has an extra blank card. There were some early 20th century decks that came with a blank card to replace one that was lost or damaged.
2.) The card backs are a cross-hatch pattern in blue, a common backing for late 19th century to early 20th century decks.
3.) The card stock is heavy and solid and relatively rough, typical of many early 20th century decks, whereas a modern recreation deck would likely have a shiny surface on thinner card stock. This deck feels authentically old.
4.) The card color is a very pale eggshell color, typical of many 100 year old decks. A modern deck would likely be bright white for the background color.
5.) The card size is about 100 mm by 67 mm, which is bigger than the standard modern poker deck size.
6.) The Ace of Hearts has the Piatnik "mounted jockey" logo in black and white (no color), which puts it 1891 or after. 1891 is when they started using the horse and jockey logo.
7.) Strangely, the company logo says "Ferd. Piatnik e Figli S.A." and the trade mark horse and rider logo has the phrase "marca registrata". Turns out the "e Figli" (meaning "and sons") and "marca" phrases are both in Italian. And the "e Figli" is seen on several of the court cards. From the company history : In 1917 the Viennese parent company was turned into a family-owned joint stock enterprise under the name ?Erste ?sterreichische Spielkartenfabrik AG, Ferd. Piatnik & S?hne?. So, you see the company name as F. Piatnik and Sons A.G. from 1917 to 1939 when the name was modified again. Possibly the "S.A." at the end of the Italian version of the company name was the Italian version of the A.G. If that is so, then it would place this deck from 1917 to 1939, but that is still speculation. On the World Web Playing Card Museum website, there is a selection of Piatnik logos from the 1917 to 1939 period when it was F. Piatnik and Sons A.G. , and the last one listed for 1939 is for one saying F. Piatnik e Figli S.A..
8.) The court figures are single ended (almost unknown for Piatnik decks, except for some Cartomancy decks), with figures in medieval dress. And the pips are ONLY in the upper left corner (no bottom right corner pip at all). These court cards are very reminiscent of the French costume decks from the 1840s to the 1860s. The court cards were built like these. So, even if this is an early 20th century deck, is appears to be a reproduction of a French deck from the 1850s or so.
9.) The four of diamonds card also has a very big and fancy company logo on it. Again, I could find no match for this unusual logo. But, on the World Web Playing Card Museum website they have examples of several big fancy Piatnik logos that look similar, with one of these having the A.G. on the end of it and another having the S.A. at the end. And I found an online auction for a Piatnk Skat deck with a similar large logo and the deck is dated as 1920.
10.) There is no 4-digit serial number below the logo, which you sometimes see on modern decks.
So, from all this evidence - the look and feel of the cards, the "S.A." which appears to place the deck between 1917 and 1939, the big fancy company logo on 4ofD, cross-hatch backs, etc. - I am dating the deck as circa the 1920s.
But again, I could find no exact matches for this deck anywhere. It's definitely unusual - an Austrian made deck, seemingly intended for the Itallian market and found in England. And the unusual court cards. Piatnik is still making historical recreation decks, buy they almost always have indices and pips in both corners. So, this court card formation seems to be VERY intentional.
If anyone can give me any information or proof of exactly what this deck is, I would greatly appreciate it.
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A few more shots of the deck to help identify it :
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SUBJECT : Mystery Piatnik deck I need help identifying.
I won this deck from a seller in England a couple of weeks ago. It is made by Ferdinand Piatnik & Sons, Vienna. I researched this deck for days before I broke down and bought it and researched for many days more, but I could find no reference online or in any of my books. It is a rather unusual deck (see photos below), especially for a Piatnik deck. From all the evidence I can gather, I am pretty sure it is an antique deck that I am dating as from the 1920s. But again, I searched everywhere and I can find no match for it, not anywhere online and not in the Fournier Museum books. I even searched all the Fournier entries, since the deck appears to be a recreation of an even earlier deck. No matches there, either. So, if anyone can identify this baby, I'd love some information on the Piatnik mystery deck.
2.) The cross-hatch pattern is usually called tartan or, in France, tarotee.
8.) These cards are from the Tuscan/Florentine pattern (https://www.wopc.co.uk/italy/florentine-pattern) designed in the 19th century and that's still produced today. What you have is fairly old since it has 52 cards. These days, it only comes in 40 cards (no 8s, 9s, or 10s).
https://www.modiano.it/it/prodotto/toscane-rosso-150-anniversario/ (https://www.modiano.it/it/prodotto/toscane-rosso-150-anniversario/)
https://shop.dalnegro.com/prodotto/toscane-pro/ (https://shop.dalnegro.com/prodotto/toscane-pro/)
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Thanks a bunch, Mr. Worst Bower! I am so happy to figure out the origin of this odd Piatnik deck. I have a couple of modern Modiano decks in the Italian suits, but with so many regional versions of Italian playing cards, I just missed the Florentine pattern.
So, this all makes sense for this deck, with the Italian text on it. Piatnik was just making a Florentine pattern deck to sell to the northern Italian market. I am agreeing with you that it is old, having the 52 cards. And with all the other clues, I am still good with me saying circa 1920s for the age.
Oh man, I am going to have to go rewrite a lot of my text about the deck since much of the mystery is solved.
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Bicycle card question...
There are hundreds of Bicycle back designs (if not more) but reference material seems to be almost universally limited to 82 vintage backs. I know there are vintage decks and modern decks but today's modern is tomorrow's vintage. What's defining that specific cutoff point?
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Bicycle card question...
There are hundreds of Bicycle back designs (if not more) but reference material seems to be almost universally limited to 82 vintage backs. I know there are vintage decks and modern decks but today's modern is tomorrow's vintage. What's defining that specific cutoff point?
Sorry this went so long unanswered.
This book is the main reason:
https://bicyclecards.org/mrs-robinsons/ (https://bicyclecards.org/mrs-robinsons/)
It was printed in the 1950s and listed all the Bicycle backs that were known by the author to exist at the time. For a long time, that was it, just those backs - I guess USPC didn't take on a lot of custom work in the pre-digital age unless you ran a casino and were planning to buy tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of decks. Making a new deck design involved a lot of hard labor in the pre-digital days using engraved plates and other such fun, laborious methods to print. It's not that long ago that people didn't have computers for design and print work and to make the plates for an offset printer.
You are correct in that today's new decks are tomorrow's vintage decks, and to go a step further, today's vintage decks are tomorrow's antique decks - and we don't have a category beyond antique! A rough ballpark figure is that decks past 20 years old are vintage, decks past 100 years old are antique.
Now, there seems to be an implied question in there: where can I find the catalog that lists all of the Bicycle card backs from that booklet to today. And you won't like the answer: there isn't one. USPC over the years changed hands at least a half-dozen or more times, and with each change, there was a lot of upheaval in terms of taking care of what was valuable in the short term (decks printed in that moment) and not what isn't actively generating income (archives, old records, etc.). So the records at USPC are likely not complete, and probably not well organized at this point, with much it still being stored analog, not digital. They can certainly find a lot of stuff, but they would be very hard pressed to create a record of every single Bicycle back design and face design printed and used from the dawn of the brand to today - it's well over 130 years of info by now.