You are Here:
Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.

Author (Read 2754 times)

Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« on: March 29, 2015, 03:28:39 PM »
 

chas0039

  • Forum Regular
  • *
  • 119
    Posts
  • Reputation: 10
Sorry if I am in the wrong place.  There doesn't seem to be a place for questions in general.

Just what is what with these tucks?  I know one is longer, but which one?  There do not seem to be any pictures or descriptions I can find, and looking at my decks makes no sense.

Thanks
 

Re: Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2015, 02:54:51 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • Vice President/Director of Club Forum, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 18,239
    Posts
  • Reputation: 412
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Sorry if I am in the wrong place.  There doesn't seem to be a place for questions in general.

Just what is what with these tucks?  I know one is longer, but which one?  There do not seem to be any pictures or descriptions I can find, and looking at my decks makes no sense.

Thanks

Just to be sure we're both talking about the same thing, USPC does currently make two different versions of the Bicycle Rider Back tuck box.  The "Standard" box is the one most commonly seen in stores everywhere - it's the newer of the two, created in 2009 after the company moved from Cincinnati to Erlanger.  That's the "808" tuck.

The "807" tuck is often called the "Classic" box by modern deck collectors.  It's the previous box design for the Rider Backs that the company originally stopped using in 2009.  Aside from the additions of elements like bar codes and updated side text, it's essentially the same box they've used for at least 40 or 50 years prior to the move.

To be clear, the cards inside both boxes are IDENTICAL, all made in Erlanger now.  Both are currently still available from USPC - though the 807 decks are not sold much outside of their own store at shopbicyclecards.com or perhaps in a well-stock magic shop.  The primary reason for the "box revival" is that the older design is still popular among many people who use the deck and there are several magician's gaffs that are designed specifically to be used with the older "807" type box design.

Both tucks, to the best of my knowledge, are also exactly the same size.  They're printed on the same paper using the same template.  There are older versions of the tuck that may have a bit of variance, such as a longer top flap, but technically, those "Classic" boxes aren't the 807s currently being offered for sale.

The modern, Erlanger-issued "Classic" box will have a bar code on the bottom, and in the code is a number 807 (but so will some of the oldest "Classic" boxes made in Cincinnati).  However, the older ones will still say they were made in Cincinnati on the sides of the box, while the new ones will likely say either Erlanger or "Made in U.S.A." on the side.  Any Cincinnati box with a bar code and a black seal is probably a "transition" deck - the box says Cincinnati but there's a very solid chance the cards inside were printed in Erlanger.  They were using up the leftover, pre-printed tuck boxes during the relocation.

Now, if you were referring to something else, or you have additional questions about this, let us know!
Card Illusionist, NYC Area Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Services for Hire

Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured. Mark Twain
 

Re: Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2015, 12:57:32 PM »
 

chas0039

  • Forum Regular
  • *
  • 119
    Posts
  • Reputation: 10
"The primary reason for the "box revival" is that the older design is still popular among many people who use the deck and there are several magician's gaffs that are designed specifically to be used with the older "807" type box design."


Thanks very much for your information.  I have an older long flap 808 which is what confused me.

I would still like to know what the difference is as you seem to indicate they are the same.  Is it just the printing on the outside, Rider Back instead of Standard?  If they are exactly the same otherwise, what is the trick?


Again, thanks,

Sam
 

Re: Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2015, 02:46:30 AM »
 

Don Boyer

  • Vice President/Director of Club Forum, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 18,239
    Posts
  • Reputation: 412
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
"The primary reason for the "box revival" is that the older design is still popular among many people who use the deck and there are several magician's gaffs that are designed specifically to be used with the older "807" type box design."


Thanks very much for your information.  I have an older long flap 808 which is what confused me.

I would still like to know what the difference is as you seem to indicate they are the same.  Is it just the printing on the outside, Rider Back instead of Standard?  If they are exactly the same otherwise, what is the trick?


Again, thanks,

Sam

These might help you figure it out.  I did a little more research and there's a few corrections here.

ShopBicycleCards.com is a company called Wingra Direct - a wholly-owned subsidiary of USPC.  They also manage Club 808 merchandise for the company.

http://www.shopbicyclecards.com/Bicycle-Standard-P77C42.aspx

This link, above, takes you to the page selling the "Standard" box, so named because instead of saying "Rider Back", they now say "Standard" in large letters.  (BTW: "Standard" is defined by USPC simply as a poker-sized deck with standard-sized indices.  There are other decks that say "Standard" on them besides the basic red, blue and black Rider Backs, but they're few and far between.)  It is what we now call the "808" deck.

http://www.shopbicyclecards.com/807-Rider-Back-P214C42.aspx

This link, above, takes you to the same company's site on the page selling what they're calling the "807" deck.  Collectors were referring to this as the "Classic" box style when the changeover in the box design took place, before they started offering this "807" deck in 2013.  The cards in the box are IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to the cards in the "Standard" box, right down to the joker king on his Bicycle passing the "808" milestone.  The outside of the box, however, is done in the earlier style used prior to 2009, and probably for the better part of a century before that with some variations.

On one side, both boxes will say "Air Cushion Finish" and "Made in U.S.A."  The opposite site, however, is different.  The Standard/808 box says "Come to Play" and "Bicyclecards.com" while the Classic/807 box says only "The United States Playing Card Co." in a single line of text.  The back of the Classic/807 box is an image of the Rider Back design, while the back of the Standard/808 box is some descriptive text about what a great company USPC is and an image of some Rider Back cards.

Here's a topic about this deck - though the deck wasn't for sale at the time on Wingra Direct!

http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=1381.0

As you can see from the discussion, there was a final "Cincinnati" version of the box that had what appears to be a model number of 807-R-TG printed on the bottom, right of the barcode and below the phrase "Bicycle Poker 808."  (I had earlier in this topic confused this number for being part of the barcode - my apologies.)  Then this other model, copyrighted 2011, eliminated the model number and replaced it with what all modern USPC decks now have, a fine-print paragraph of copyright information, starting with the year of the copyright.  It's a safe assumption that the Classic box with the 2011 copyright on it is the product they started selling last year as the "Bicycle 807," since collectors spotted that model number and associated it with the earlier of the two box designs, and the copyright year is probably updated to match the year the deck is printed.  The name would appear to have been derived from what we're guessing was the model number the last Cincinnati-made version of the tuck, leaving out the letters and using just the numeric portion.  The Bicycle 807 deck, prior to Wingra Direct selling it, was probably something made available to magic shops but not to the general public.

We do know that many of the first decks to come from Erlanger were packaged in the "807-R-TG" boxes that stated they were from Cincinnati - it's assumed that the boxes were preprinted and that USPC was using up left-over stock from Cincinnati rather than destroying it.  The 2011 boxes, as shown in this topic, have no listing of an address, allowing the company in theory to use them indefinitely regardless of address changes.  However, it's not impossible that there are variants of this box design that do indeed include the Erlanger address.  I know that some custom-designed versions of the Rider Back and other decks made at USPC under contract to other companies (such as Theory11) have a box style that's similar to if not nearly identical to the Classic box which does indeed show the company's Erlanger address in the same manner that the Cincinnati address used to be presented.  A few prime examples of this would be the most recent printings of the Bicycle Titanium Series and the Propaganda deck, both made by USPC for T11.  T11 has a closer connection to USPC than most deck producers - they were hired to create some custom decks for USPC, models that were both USPC-exclusives as well as ones that were released by both companies, T11 and USPC.  Additionally, USPC's most recent redesign of bicyclecards.com was done for them by T11.

THE SHORT VERSION OF THE STORY: the cards in both the Standard/808s and the Classic/807s are identical.  The 807s are the closest thing you're going to find to the Classic tuck box in a newly-printed deck from USPC.  807s were offered because there are many magic tricks that utilize design features of the Classic box that no longer exist on the Standard box - and presumably there are some customers beside magicians that prefer the older box design.  A prime example of an design element that's used in magic would be the back of the Classic box, which has a full-sized image of the deck's card back, while the Standard box replaced it with what is essentially an ad for the brand.  I know of tricks that use that image on the back of the box as part of a gimmick used to execute the trick, meaning that with the Standard box, you can't perform that trick in a convincing manner.  If you're looking for a specific trick, check out "Cased" by Peter Eggink, sold by Ellusionist.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 02:47:54 AM by Don Boyer »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Services for Hire

Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured. Mark Twain
 

Re: Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2015, 08:10:50 AM »
 

chas0039

  • Forum Regular
  • *
  • 119
    Posts
  • Reputation: 10
Thanks so much for all your work!  This clears it up.

Sam
 

Re: Help with Bicycle 807/808 tuck.
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2015, 12:29:00 PM »
 

Don Boyer

  • Vice President/Director of Club Forum, 52 Plus Joker
  • Administrator
  • Forum Sentinel
  • *
  • 18,239
    Posts
  • Reputation: 412
  • Pick a card, any card...no, not THAT card!

  • Facebook:
Thanks so much for all your work!  This clears it up.

Sam

A final note - if you get one of the old 807-R-TG boxes and it has a black seal instead of red or blue, it's probably an Erlanger-made deck in a Cincinnati-made box.  Some people get fussy about that.

While the overall quality of USPC printing has improved since about 2011, the basic Bicycle Standard decks have gone down a skosh.  They started using a thinner stock for them.  Back when they still used g/m2 instead of caliper thickness range to measure their stock, they switched from a 325 stock to a 300 due to some issues with the web press, to the best of my knowledge.  (Don't get me started on the caliper thickness range thing - we have a thick topic on that around here somewhere.

I moved the topic to "the Source" board - it's important core info.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 12:30:18 PM by Don Boyer »
Card Illusionist, NYC Area Playing Card Design & Development Consultant
Services for Hire

Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured. Mark Twain