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Messages - Don Boyer

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51
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Wild Bill Hickok Deck?
« on: April 19, 2023, 02:40:24 AM »
Were the cards he used square? Were there any numbers on cards. I'm trying to replicate it just for fun on my wine barrel with the glass table top over the top of it. Thank you for your time

It's a shame that so many of the photos in this thread are lost to dead links.  It's why I keep encouraging people to upload their photos instead of simply linking to them - too many topics have lost a lot of their relevance because of dead links.

Anyway, regarding Mr. Hickok's cards, they were almost certainly square-cornered, without indices, and while we know he was holding a pair of Aces and a pair of Eights, there's been much debate over what the fifth card was, and even what the exact suits of the Aces and Eights were.

You could probably replicate the look of the old cards using some parchment-like heavy paper or printing the cards onto white cardstock and aging them with used teabags (old D&D DM's trick).  I'd suggest using a guillotine-style paper cutter - you'll get much straighter lines with them.

52
It's not bad, but I was never big on paisley.

53
Another lucky find in the Congress category - the scarcely seen 1903 variant of "Yacht".  Not great condition, but you take what you can find!  The box indicates that this was originally sold at a Boots stationers in England.

Considering the deck is about 120 years old, I'd say it's in excellent shape.  Any creased or torn cards, or did you really luck out and find an undamaged deck?

54
Design & Development / Re: New project: BartenderDeck
« on: April 19, 2023, 02:13:39 AM »
I think I know the person who created this deck.  The funding didn't succeed.  Projects that are focused so heavily on magic will appeal to magicians, but there's not enough magicians out there to make enough money unless you manage to entrance ALL the magicians.

55
Design & Development / Re: Feedback wanted on redesign of deck!
« on: April 19, 2023, 02:10:09 AM »
I don't wish to sound harsh, but I don't think you have a winner here.  There's little by way of genuinely original artwork, just some graphics, and they're kind of on the dark side - not evil, just lacking light.  For much of it, I'm failing to see the connection to the stock market or the finance industry.  Alternating stripes of green and red?  A series of X's and O's?

It's not the worst deck I've ever seen, but it's not great.

56
Just an FYI to all, the Cardbase is shuttered.

57
The Conversation Parlor / Re: Factory Closed?
« on: April 19, 2023, 01:51:33 AM »
Thank you for the information. I still don't know if my employer got the story wrong or not... I was suspecting that the cards that were no longer available were Gemaco, but I haven't seen anything yet to indicate that to be true. Anyway, after reading your response, I am more knowledgeable than I was. Thanks again.

Actually, I did a little more research.

GPI, I hadn't heard much about them since they bought Gemaco - USPC had purchased Gemaco first, but was forced to sell it off to prevent anti-trust proceedings.  I just learned that GPI was itself purchased by Angel Group in May of 2019, based out of Kyoto, Japan.  Angel's long been a quality maker of playing cards for retail and casino buyers - I own a few of their decks and I like the quality.

Turns out that at some point before the purchase, GPI set up the company's North American headquarters in Las Vegas, but started manufacturing of the cards in a factory in Sonora, on the Mexico side of the US border.  I'm not sure at what point or under whose ownership that the US printing operations were shuttered, but they are indeed shuttered, it seems.  They're no longer considered a domestic manufacturer.

So if your casino is dedicated to buying from US manufacturers, USPC is the only game in town left, at least for casino-grade decks.  When the operation was sold to Cartamundi at the end of 2019, Cartamundi kept all of the US operations intact - both USPC's and their own.  In addition to playing cards made in Erlanger, Kentucky, Cartamundi has a board game factory outside of Boston and a customizable card game printer in the Dallas area - last I heard, they're the ones printing all the Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon cards, maybe Yu-Gi-Oh! as well.  USPC's print operations aren't expected to move anytime soon - they only opened their current plant in 2009 and it's still pretty close to state-of-the-art.  I doubt Cartamundi has any future plans to move their operations - nor their operations in Vitoria, Spain, where USPC subsidiary Heraclio Fournier operates a card printing plant.

As far as Liberty goes, well - they state they do casino-quality cards on their site, but they do far, far more work in the novelty, advertising and gift market; things like custom decks for wedding gifts to guests, that sort of stuff.  I'm not the guy who knows all casinos, but to my admittedly-limited knowledge, there aren't any casinos supplied by them with playing cards.  I would think if there were, they'd go through the trouble of advertising about it on their web site - and there's not a casino card to be seen.  They do a decent job of making custom tuck boxes for some boutique decks, the kind of stuff you find on Kickstarter.

So od. ds are, your casino manager might have been referring to "Gemaco" shutting down their US operations, or they might have been talking about how USPC closed their factory during the pandemic itself, then reopened to a massive backlog of orders and a a supply chain that's tied in knots.  No matter how you slice it, there's a shortage of casino-grade cards, especially ones that are pre-shuffled, and it still hasn't squared itself away yet.

58
Playing Card Plethora / Re: How old is this Tally Ho deck?
« on: April 19, 2023, 01:07:46 AM »
Really nobody has an idea when this design switch on the box might have happened? :(

My opinion is that it was around 1990-1993.

Tuck Case appears to date to about 1990-91.

The deck inside may date to 1990-93.

What about the deck brings you to that conclusion?

59
I am pretty new to collecting, and I recently bought this steamboat 999 deck on eBay. It seems to have. US7b ace of spades, but it says ?United States Printing Company? instead of ?United States Playing Card Co.?, which I don?t seem to see listed in my Hochman. I attached a photo of the deck. Does anyone have any information on this deck or when it may have been made? Thanks!

It is a very cool find.  Before they were known as the US Playing Card Company, they were Russell & Morgan, then they were the US Printing Company - before they were the makers of playing cards we all know and love, they were in demand for things like large circus posters and various other advertisements.  This would have been in the infancy or toddlerhood of their playing card printing days.  From what little you've shown, they also look to be in great condition for their probable age.

There's still a number of gaps in the information catalogued in Hochman - we're attempting to fill those gaps with posts like this on the forum.  Thanks for showing us your very interesting find!

60
Hi I am searching for the above deck. Please pm me. Mike

Keep tabs on the uusi.us website.  They generally release most of their decks in two colorways - one of which is limited edition.  The other, if the deck is in enough demand, might occasionally see a reprint.  Some of their decks have been reprinted quite a few times - my wife has a Fourth Edition Pagan Otherworlds tarot deck from them, and it's not even their newest printing.

61
Playing Card Plethora / Re: Semi transformation Playing Cards
« on: April 18, 2023, 10:48:35 AM »
I like where you're going with this so far.  No major suggestions to add, really - looks like you're on the right track.

62
The Conversation Parlor / Re: Bilangual packs value.
« on: April 18, 2023, 10:43:13 AM »
Does having a bilangual pack affect the value of a deck? I brought 2 regular pack of bicycle cards somewhere in special, when I got home I realise that those decks were printed back in 2010 and to my surprise when I opened one of them,  I also saw that they came with the guaranteed joker. Does that kind of deck have any special value?

Packs sold in Canada are required under Canadian law to be labeled in both English and French.

The guarantee joker was still not entirely phased out by 2010 - but it was on its way to extinction, to be sure.

These decks aren't terribly old, nor are they otherwise very unique - they're worth about what a pack of Bicycle cards is worth brand new from the local pharmacy or stationery store.  They were printed in the thousands of thousands, literally.  Sorry if that bursts your bubble.

63
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: NYCC Kind Of Sort Of
« on: April 18, 2023, 10:39:36 AM »
This posting is an attempt at clarifying some of the numbers that often appear on various Aces of Spades among the many brands issued by NYCC. I found this information in a couple of mint decks that still contained the accompanying slips of paper inserted into their respective boxes. This represented one of the ways in which NYCC tried to improve their customer service and guarantee satisfaction.
The first two photographs show the front and back of one of these slips that indicate which sorter at the factory assembled the deck and placed it in it's OB. You will note the numbers "9" on the front and the stamped number "84" on the back. This slip was inserted into a NYCC deck with their celebrated Angel back and a tax stamp dated 1899 so this was the practice at around that time.
The third photograph shows a slip of paper that was inserted into a deck of Triton brand playing cards. Although the tax stamp for this deck is intact, the red cancellation is indistinct and so I cannot identify the date which would tell us when NYCC instituted this new practice of identifying which sorter handled any given deck.
The fourth picture shows the Ace of Spades where we can see the stamped numbers "5 8 4" in the lower right hand corner representing the new way of identifying which sorter handled this deck. Unfortunately, I am unable to determine the significance, if any, of the printed number "713" at the base of this card.
The fifth picture shows the wonderful back design for this deck entitled "Flower Dance" which shows a performer adorned in what appears to be colorful Japanese attire compete with handfuls, and a hat full, of flowers. If anyone can determine when this design was issued then we can determine the circa date when NYCC changed their method of identifying which sorter handled which deck and what measures would have been called for when the incorrect deck was returned to them for replacement.

Well, I don't have info on the age of the deck or the date when they instituted the new system for IDing sorters, but I have a few educated guesses for you.

The slip with the #9 on the front - that's the sorter, right?  The #84 on the back?  This might be a supervisor's or inspector's number, someone who was "next in line" in the chain of custody of the deck before it got sealed away in the box.

The Ace with the new inspector code - you're wondering about the small three-digit number that's printed on the card - as in printed when the card was made, rather than stamped on after manufacture, like the inspector code.  It's probably as simple as a production code, similar to what USPC eventually started using on their Aces of Spades to identify their print runs.  You'd know the production code at the time the project was going to press, so you could include it on the printing plates, but you really can't say who's going to sort it until it's being sorted.

64
The Conversation Parlor / Re: Factory Closed?
« on: April 18, 2023, 06:51:05 AM »
Hello,
    An executive at the casino where I am employed has informed the staff that "one of the only two manufacturers in North America" has closed their factory either during the pandemic or since... without selling their business but simply shutting down. Apparently this has lead to many casinos transferring their orders to the other factory, leading to a backlog and shortages in pre-shuffle cards. I'm wondering if anyone here knows the name of the manufacturer that closed down?
I hope I asked this in the right place, I am new here and this is my first post.
Thanks.

I personally know of only three manufacturers in the United States that are still active today.  (Sorry for the late answer.)

The biggest is the United States Playing Card Company (USPC), now a subsidiary of Cartamundi.

Next biggest is Gaming Partners International (GPI), which owns Gemaco (based in Missouri) and Paulson (based, I think, in Nevada, near Las Vegas), and a few others - all smaller companies which deal almost exclusively in manufacturing for casinos.

Smallest would be Liberty - they acquired some assets of some other small companies, but they're also pretty small themselves compared to the output of the other two companies.  I'd wager that their sister company, Gambler's Warehouse (formerly Gambler's General Store), does more business in terms of selling decks, mostly made by other companies, and handling order fulfillment for designers doing boutique projects, both privately-funded and crowdfunded.  I doubt they're who your boss is thinking of, as I don't think they do any casino work.

I know for a fact that USPC was closed for a while in the early days of the pandemic, and that the closing caused a backlog in orders - a backlog that was complicated by many factors involving screwed-up logistics chains worldwide and still exists today.  Compounding this issue is the fact that while anyone who reports to work stayed home, most graphic designers these days work from home and suddenly had time to kill - and kill it they did, making new deck designs and offering them on Kickstarter to people with time on their hands, a hankering for interesting-looking playing cards and extra money in their bank accounts.  This simply made the issue into more of a bottleneck.  Not all these projects were printed in the US, but a healthy percentage of them went to USPC to do the work.  The only "boutique" printers I know of doing this kind of work are located in Taiwan, mainland China, India and Ukraine, though the latter may no longer exist, what with the war and all.

It would not surprise me in the least to learn that GPI's printers were also shut down for a period of time during the pandemic and are suffering the same logistics and supply issues today.  USPC orders that used to take 6-8 weeks are taking months, I've been told - at least double the normal time.  While I have less current information now, it's probably still true to this day.

Everyone's feeling the pain on this one - companies of all sorts are still having supply chain snafus all up and down the line and products that used to be easy to obtain are at times difficult to impossible to find.  Last estimate I heard was that, on a global scale, the logistics issues companies are running into now won't be completely squared away until perhaps some time in 2025.

66
Hi Toby,

I must admit I always read the "gold borders" as meaning gold edges, however now I see that is not what was being described.   I have the girl standing at the beach, but she is in a No. 504 box.  Is it possible the numbers correspond to the different backs?

Actually, gold borders could be just that - gold borders.  Instead of a uniform band of white surrounding the back art, it would be printed into the bleed area with gold ink.  It was meant to look nearly as nice as a gilded deck but at a somewhat lower cost.  I can't say this for certain, but my bet would be that you're looking at a different model number on your box because it's for a different deck in the manufacturer's catalog - gold borders versus gold edges (a.k.a. gilding).

It's also not impossible that someone took that box and slipped a gilded deck into it - it happens a lot with older decks.  It's easy to understand, as well, that someone might confuse gold borders and gold edges, thus slipping a gilded deck into a box for gold-bordered cards.

When decks are this old, it's pretty common to find that the box fell apart long ago and no decent fragment of it remained with the cards.  I was always astounded at how the cards themselves could outlast the thing meant to protect them from rough handling, wear, light and dust.  But if someone wanted to protect a deck and the original wrapper or box was destroyed or lost, they'll grab the next best thing - the box from another deck.

67
Taking a quick stab at it, I'd estimate the first deck is from the turn of the century, circa 1900, plus or minus.  The rounded corners weren't as common until the 20th century, and neither were indices, but the early index designs were small much like this one.

The second deck looks slightly more contemporary - and is that gold ink on the backs?  Probably made in the post-Great-War years and before the Black Friday stock market crash - roughly 1919-1929.  Indices that large were uncommon on earlier decks, and gold ink was eschewed on most decks made during the Great Depression, when few people could afford to buy anything so fancy.

I'd say to try the World of Playing Cards website for more information.  They'd know more about decks originating from Europe and would have more examples on hand - most of the people here have most of their deck knowledge focused on American brands and products.  We know European decks a little, while they know them a lot.

68
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Help identifying several vintage decks
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:46:07 AM »
I do have one more item to post pictures of, but I want to get a good sleep in before I handle it as it is very fragile.  I'll leave you with one picture of it to ponder and will post more pictures tomorrow.

That red box looks like it's made of Bakelite - probably intended for holding one, maybe two decks (I can't tell how thick it is in the photo, but I'd guess its capacity is only one deck).  Nearly anything made of Bakelite has some monetary value to collectors of Bakelite items, especially because of how lovely and delicate these items could be - Bakelite was a precursor to modern plastics, but was much more brittle, so examples of it don't often survive as well.  Bakelite was popular with makers of small radios - not pocket-sized but plug-in models large enough to sit on a shelf or table - and Kem used them at one point for deck cases, eventually abandoning it like most companies that used it when sturdier plastics became more common - circa 1940s.

69
Playing Card Plethora / Re: First-Ever CardCon (Presented by Bicycle)
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:36:20 AM »
CardCon 2 has already been announced.  While the exact venue hasn't yet been revealed, it will take place in Manhattan on Saturday, November 4.  Tickets are not yet on sale and the line-up of guests and attractions hasn't been announced.

70
Playing Card Plethora / Re: How old is this Tally Ho deck?
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:32:50 AM »
Check out this post re: Bicycle decks.  http://www.playingcardforum.com/index.php?topic=13616.msg133246#msg133246

Your deck is from between 1980 - 1994 based on the type of bar code.   And, because there is no registered trademark symbol, it is pre-1990-ish.  So 1980s is my best guess.

I concur.  The fact that the seal is a sticker and not a moisture-based adhesive stamp with perforated top and bottom edges would also indicate 1980s, but no earlier than that.

71
It slowly dawned on me that decks of cards from the 1970s and 1980s are starting to get up there in age.  But they are readily available, even unopened.  But how to date the unopened decks?  I collected a bunch of Bicycle decks from the 70s to present, and noted how you can narrow down the date of a sealed deck of cards from the changes in the tuck.

*** All dates + / 1 a year given that tucks and decks may have been made in different years ***

If you have a bar code on the bottom right that starts with a floating 0, your deck was made between 1980 - 1994.

If your have a bar code on the bottom right with a non-floating 0, your deck was made between 1995 - 2000.

Additionally, Bicycle added the Registered Trademark symbol to the front of the tuck around 1991, and added small slits in the tongue of the tuck around 1994.

Bar code was moved to the bottom left around 2000.

If anyone else has some tips for dating sealed modern Bicycle decks, like when the white cellophane pull strip was in use, add them below.  And if I got something wrong, please let me know.

At some point in late 2009 (I think in October), the company shuttered the Cincinnati factory and shifted all production to the Erlanger, Kentucky plant.  With rare exception, the commonly-sold decks (non-collectibles, mass-produced) made after that point had black deck seals with white writing.  It took a little while thereafter for the decks to start listing "Erlanger, KY" as the company address on the side of the tuck box.  After another little while, they left out the city altogether and just listed the decks as being made in the USA on one side with the company name on the other.

Also, sometime not too after the relocation, the company started taking the "legalese" text about "rights reserved" and all that and printing it on the bottom of the tuck box instead of on the tongue of the top flap - it's on the right, across from the bar code.  The copyright year is always given as the year the tuck box was printed, and for mass produced decks, the copyright year is in most cases the same year that the deck itself was printed - sometimes they might have some leftover box stock at the start of a new year, but they use it up pretty quick and start using the new year version when they're done.  And in this case, it is the copyright, not the trademark - the common box design in use, the one that says "STANDARD" at the bottom of the face instead of "RIDER BACK" , came into existence when they moved, in 2009.  The previous model, called "Classic" by some collectors, "Rider Back" by others, and "Model 809" by USPC themselves, is still in print but only sold to magic shops and duck specialty stores - it has the same updates regarding legalese, location of the factory, etc., and is under copyright because the design came about around the middle of the 20th century - I'd guess 1950s, certainly no later than 1960s.  So the boxes are still copyrighted, while the older, unique artwork still in use is trademarked (too old to be copyrighted).

For opened decks, they're super easy to date if they're new enough.  Any of the new-print decks made after the relocation have additional numerals prefacing the production code printed on the Ace of Spades.  Prior to this, the letter in the production code was the largest clue for when the deck was printed, and it would only reveal the year.  Now, this prefix tells a more detailed story: the first two digits are the week of the year it was printed and the last two digits are the last two digits of the year.  For example, this week (the week of Tuesday, April 18, 2023) would have a prefix in the production code of 1523 - we're in the 15th week of this year.

Rarely will you see this prefix bearing the starting two digits of 51 or 52: the company shuts down the plant for the winter holidays, reopening in the new year.  I believe they take a similar two-week break in the summer, but I don't know precisely when - if I was guessing, I'd say coinciding with Independence Day.

72
A Cellar of Fine Vintages / Re: Help identifying another old deck
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:07:29 AM »
I have another old deck I am wondering about. (I work at a small museum where we are cataloging some old games and toys in our collection.) Could anyone tell me anything about these cards? Thank you!

Looks like it's a "skat" deck - a special deck of playing cards intended for playing a specific card game called "skat."  It's a lot like a pinochle deck, but way fewer cards.  I think skat decks had 32 cards - the low spot cards weren't used, so special decks made just for skat didn't include them - it made the deck less expensive.

Playing cards didn't become common household commodities until around the late 19th or early 20th century because of the cost of manufacture.  You watch old Westerns with people playing cards around the tables of a saloon - often, it was the saloon that owned the decks, not the players, and they'd get stored nightly in a deck vise to keep them flat and ready for use the next day.

I agree that this particular deck was very possibly French in origin, at least in terms of the original design.  It's also possible that some Eastern European deck maker may have copied the French designs to make their own cards - that, too, was a common practice in the mid-to-late 19th century.  "American" playing cards originated in Rouen, where cards for export were made and sold (the French considered the Parisian deck designs to be theirs, the Rouen cards to be inferior works).  From there, the British bought them, then copied the designs, and the Americans did the same to the Brits.  As a result, the International Standard came about by way of Rouen.

73
Thank you!!  I think you are correct about the Star Playing Cards being made by Perfection.
It?s amazing that new discoveries are still being made today.!
Is there another update of the Hochman Encyclopedia being planned? I?m sure there has been a lot of discoveries like this since the last update in 2004.

You're right in that there's still room for improvement and that there's new information being discovered all the time.

Up to now, the Hochman Encyclopedia went from Gene Hochman to Tom and Judy Dawson.  Tom passed away a few years back, and like the rest of us, Judy isn't getting younger.  Where the rights to reproduce will go from there, I do not know.  To my knowledge, Judy isn't working on a new version - the most recent and complete one in existence is the electronic one that was produced in conjunction with the Conjuring Arts Research Center.

You may well be looking at the only existing addendum to that volume of research, at least for now.  I'd wager the next version will wind up being some kind of online wiki-database.

74
Many younger magicians would balk at the hefty price tags that were commanded by these early factory printed decks, such as the Ultimate Marked Deck, which still retails for $40.  But at the time these came out, the concept of a printed Bicycle-branded marked deck with a reader system was still somewhat new, and magicians were happy to spend that kind of money on a versatile and quality marked deck like this, given how ground-breaking it was.  And of course you weren't just paying for the materials, but for the secret and the innovation. The price point of a lot of magic products is determined by a large number of different factors, which can include small print runs, development costs, and more, and isn't always as simple as what consumers seem to think when they just consider the cost of materials.

Actually, to be fair, the UMD wasn't always $40.  I recall getting a few packs for just $25 each back in '07, and not because of a sale.  The price only started to climb after USPC stopped permitting alterations of the Rider Back design, making the UMDs an instant collector's item.  I've been watching the price steadily creep higher over time.  The creators did manage to "pull a fast one" and sneak another print run onto the USPC presses after the ban, but that was the last print run and that was a handful of years ago at this point.  One should expect prices to continue to climb as fewer and fewer of the decks remain in existence, with even fewer still in circulation and actually being used.

For the readers who don't already know: USPC stopped permitting alterations of many of their classic, original designs - specifically old card backs, the Aces of Spades and the Jokers of many decks, particular the ones with the longest history.  The designs are too old to be protected under copyright law, so the company had to register them as trademarks to prevent other companies from using their designs.  While copyrights expire, trademarks can be renewed ad infinitum - but in order to receive protection, trademarks do indeed have to be periodically renewed and they have to be protected against "dilution", meaning close look-alike designs being offered for sale, even if they are the ones doing the offering.  Because dilution can render a trademark unprotectable, USPC doesn't allow any alterations of these designs, and that includes the creation of magician's gaff cards and marked decks.  For Aces of Spades and Jokers, you'll be asked to use either unique designs of your own devising (or for which you hold the copyright or written permission of the copyright holder) or generic ones as substitutes, but for card backs, there's no alternative option beyond using a wholly different card back.

The Maiden Back and Mandolin Back designs were intentionally created to look sort of like the Rider Back design, but not close enough to be considered an infringement of the trademark - and because they're fairly new designs, they have dozens of years left on their copyright protection, so trademarking them was never required.  It's why any new, factory-printed marked deck from USPC will not be a Rider Back - it will be either a Maiden Back, a Mandolin Back, something entirely different and still under copyright, or something in the public domain (which is printable by anyone, royalty-free).

75
Design & Development / Re: Macbeth Playing Cards - Need Some Feedback
« on: April 18, 2023, 03:37:42 AM »
Good afternoon everyone! This is my first time on this forum, so can't wait to talk to other passionate enthusiasts and collectors.

I producing my first project out of, hopefully, the many that I'm doing in the future. This playing card is based on Macbeth; everything from the themes, to the characters to the colour palate is based on the Shakespeare play. The project started early this year and I'm hoping to get a final draft done by August or September of this year. I wanted to launch a Kickstarter this year, but due to the uncertainties in the economy and the whole Ukraine-Russia war that's happening, which is affecting everything, I had to push the Kickstarter launch till next year.

In the mean time, I would like to show some of the artwork that has been produced for the first draft. Please provide some feedback about them, I would love to know what people are thinking about the design. Tell me what you like, what you don't like, any improvements and ideas.

The samples are in this imgur link: https://imgur.com/a/Ss7aUnF

Let me know what you think so far. Cheers!

Nice sketches.  I'd work on making the pips more attractive and the font more calligraphic, or at least like contemporary handwriting or print.  Don't fall for the faux aging trap - I'd go with a parchment or linen stock look to the background, but no aging effects; it's been played out and will only detract from the art.

Keep tabs on prices for getting your deck made.  Inflation is slowing down, but it's far from dead - prices have gone a little haywire, thanks to a handful of factors, not the least being the war in Ukraine, the pandemic's lasting effects on the supply chain and the recent collapse of three mid-sized banks.  You might get a quote today, be ready to print in two or three months, only to see the prices have gone up and you are no longer ready to print as a result.

Yeah, I know - not exactly timely tips...  :)

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